Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Tips and Tricks you have discovered with your S1, VII, Mini-VII, Dream, or Dream T that lets you do any aspect of coffee making, steaming, maintenance, etc better.
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Endo

Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

Got the new naked portafilter today. Lots of fun but quite a bit of "spritzing". Seems like my dosing and tamping won't need much adjustment. Here's a shot of my first attempt.
s_DSC01095.jpg
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JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:Got the new naked portafilter today. Lots of fun but quite a bit of "spritzing". Seems like my dosing and tamping won't need much adjustment. Here's a shot of my first attempt.
Spritzing???
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

"Spritzing" or little jets that shoot out to the side and cover your panel and gauge (or yourself). You can see a drop on the PF handle in the photo from one of these little side jets.
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

Endo,
Although I am pretty new, it looks great to me. I'd be thrilled with one anywhere near that!! I just pulled my first naked portofilter shot today, and it was pretty scary. Not very even, just barely came together at the end, with big gaps around the screen. Not sure what to do to improve? Using an Espro tamper. Good time for the shot, but clearly uneven extraction. Thoughts?
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

David23 wrote:Endo,
Although I am pretty new, it looks great to me. I'd be thrilled with one anywhere near that!! I just pulled my first naked portofilter shot today, and it was pretty scary. Not very even, just barely came together at the end, with big gaps around the screen. Not sure what to do to improve? Using an Espro tamper. Good time for the shot, but clearly uneven extraction. Thoughts?
What are you using for a dose? 15g? 17g? What espresso? Using any distribution technique?
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

I loosely fill the portafilter from the Mazzer, without tapping down, carefully spread around with my finger level to the top, in all directions to even out the dose. Then tamp with the espro. The finished dose is usually right at the indention in the basket. Appears pretty level. I have fresh beans from a local shop that roasts often. My beans are now about a week old, stored airtight. Should I weigh my dose? or is it more the distribution?
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

You are up between 17-18g when you dose like that. Do you have the pre infusion option? I think a scale is a big help as not all espressos leand themselves to large doses. I'd cut back to 15g & work on your distribution until you get nice pours. Does your Mini have a doser? Are you grinding per shot or building up grounds in the doser? Brew temp? Dark, oily beans or lighter roast?
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

I use the local shop's espresso blend, looks medium dark with a little oil. I have the pre infusion option on the Mini Vivaldi. I grind per shot, and the mazzer has a doser. I overfill the portafilter then wipe off as I described. Brew temp is set on the machine at 93. How do I cut back to lower dose, and get an even distribution? I thought I had to wipe it level to make it even. Use something a little dished to clean off the top of the portafilter in a concave shape before tamping? Also, my espro tamper is the convex shape. When you weigh, are you weighing the ground grinds after put in the portafilter after leveling off? I have a scale, just haven't used it yet, as I'm not sure what to weigh or look for.
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

David23 wrote:I use the local shop's espresso blend, looks medium dark with a little oil. I have the pre infusion option on the Mini Vivaldi. I grind per shot, and the mazzer has a doser. I overfill the portafilter then wipe off as I described. Brew temp is set on the machine at 93. How do I cut back to lower dose, and get an even distribution? I thought I had to wipe it level to make it even. Use something a little dished to clean off the top of the portafilter in a concave shape before tamping? Also, my espro tamper is the convex shape. When you weigh, are you weighing the ground grinds after put in the portafilter after leveling off? I have a scale, just haven't used it yet, as I'm not sure what to weigh or look for.
I weigh the beans before grinding using say 15.3g & figuring I'm getting a good 15g+ in the basket if I clean out the chute with a chopstick. I use my finger to level the dose. It doesn't have to be perfectly level but you can get it pretty close. If you end up with clumps in the basket use a needle or something similar to break the up before leveling. Don't get hung up on the 30lb tamp thing. I tamp much lighter & really don't give it a lot of thought. Use the tamper to level things out by doing the "nutating" move before tamping(think of a coin settling after you drop it). Sit it in the basket & rock it slightly as you twist it so it sits level before you tamp.(think of a coin settling after you drop it)
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

John, thanks for the tips, sorry if I hijacked this thread.
I'll try the suggestions you made, (in the morning) particularly weighing and the nutating move, and see how my pulls improve.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

David23 wrote:Endo,
Although I am pretty new, it looks great to me. I'd be thrilled with one anywhere near that!! I just pulled my first naked portofilter shot today, and it was pretty scary. Not very even, just barely came together at the end, with big gaps around the screen. Not sure what to do to improve? Using an Espro tamper. Good time for the shot, but clearly uneven extraction. Thoughts?
David,

It sounds like you do everything I do (and have all the same gear I have). So, I would say your shots probably look a lot like mine. To be honest, this picture of my first naked shot is very deceiving. If you saw it on video, you would not be so impressed (timing is everything) :grin: . This shot actually lasted only 15 seconds (I typically aim for 30sec). So what you see in the picture was after about 10 seconds and then it went very blond soon after.

Again, to be perfectly honest, the naked pours I get with the 53mm Vivaldi are not nearly as impressive as the "slow, syrupy" naked pours I've done on 58mm machines (ike E-61s). Perhaps I have some more learning to do, or perhaps it's just the nature of the machine (I asssume pre-infusion might make things better for me).

As far as my dosing, distribution and tamping is concerned:

I grind each dose, do a Stockfleth move, level flat with a finger and then tamp using nutation, 30 lbs pressure and a polish (no tapping or settling). I don't weigh my doses all the time, but I did at the beginning and I got a consistant 17g. I like to dose more than John's 15g (just my taste preference).

Like John said, the nutation is important. Especially with the smaller 53mm basket (for some reason).
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote: Again, to be perfectly honest, the naked pours I get with the 53mm Vivaldi are not nearly as impressive as the "slow, syrupy" naked pours I've done on 58mm machines (ike E-61s). Perhaps I have some more learning to do, or perhaps it's just the nature of the machine (I asssume pre-infusion might make things better for me).

I don't weigh my doses all the time, but I did at the beginning and I got a consistant 17g. I like to dose more than John's 15g (just my taste preference).
I do slow, syrupy pours all the time on my S1 with many lasting 40 secs or more. It all depends on your grind, the Vivaldi is no different in that case. Typically in the 35-40 second range before blonding/cut off. I was doing this before p/i became available so it isn't required.

Also used 17-18g doses for many months but found I preferred the lighter caffeine kick of the smaller doses as it allows me to drink more shots throughout the day.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

JohnB wrote: I do slow, syrupy pours all the time on my S1 with many lasting 40 secs or more.
I need video evidence. :lol:

Can you compare to this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7NTc9g ... re=related

I'm getting close as well (I can make them as long as I like or even choke it). I'm using 1 week old 49th Parallel Epic Espresso. Still, the tiger striping and viscosity is not as nice as my E-61.

Perhaps a triple basket and some more practice will get me closer.
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

Thanks for the information Endo, I have noticed you have the same gear, and recently purchased your Vivaldi, a while before I got mine (Only had mine less than a week). I had hoped I could get some tips from you. I am getting good times, around 25 sec. and so I think the shots are ok, but certainly not anything beyond ok. Are your long syrupy pulls simply finner grind, but not to the point of choking? How does this impact flavor?
THis morning my naked pull looked better than yesterday, as I was more careful getting my tamp level and nutated more prior to actual tamp pressure. One of my problems is that I almost only drink espresso with some milk over ice. My wife drinks lattes (? double shot with steamed milk microfoam). It is often hard for me to tell if the shots actually taste good, even though they may meet the time spec. and look good with lots of crema etc. At my request, my wife is trying to be more critical of taste and texture, and give me feedback. I am still finding my drinks to have a less intense flavor than my two local quality shops'. I am going to try a couple other beans to see if that helps, but it could simply be my ratios or something. I hope to get an opportunity to watch them make the drinks more carefully so I can duplicate them.
Feel free to email me directly if you would prefer to communicate outside the forum.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

David23 wrote:Are your long syrupy pulls simply finner grind, but not to the point of choking? How does this impact flavor?
My pulls have not been very syrupy, but I can slow them down to 40 seconds easy enough. I simply grind finer on my Mazzer Super Jolly.
David23 wrote:One of my problems is that I almost only drink espresso with some milk over ice. My wife drinks lattes
We are leading parallel lives ! :lol:
David23 wrote:I am still finding my drinks to have a less intense flavor than my two local quality shops'. I am going to try a couple other beans to see if that helps,
Are you using the same beans as your shop? That would be my first suggestion. It sounds to me like a bean problem that you are having (although you say they are only one week old). The beans will make a much bigger difference than anything you can do on the machine. Switch your beans first, next, I would be to ask what grinder and machine they are using at your shop?
David23 wrote:Feel free to email me directly if you would prefer to communicate outside the forum.
This forum is a fine place to discuss this as far as I'm concerned. They seem like issues a lot of readers may have that get revealed only when you go naked! :lol: :oops: :lol:
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

So does that mean you also like to drink espresso with milk and ice? How do you make yours (or should this be a new thread?)
I am going over to the better of the local shops tomorrow to buy beans and talk with the owner if he is there. I hope to get some tips and discuss the flavor issue. He has offered to talk at length if I can come over when it is not busy in the shop.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

David23 wrote:So does that mean you also like to drink espresso with milk and ice? How do you make yours (or should this be a new thread?)
I am going over to the better of the local shops tomorrow to buy beans and talk with the owner if he is there. I hope to get some tips and discuss the flavor issue. He has offered to talk at length if I can come over when it is not busy in the shop.
Actually, I'm an espresso drinker. Wife drinks lattes. His and hers boilers. :grin:

I never tried espresso, milk and ice. Sounds interesting and something I'd be wiiling to try. Why not start a "Espresso and Ice" post and let me know how you do it. Tiss the season after all ! (I sure have enough ice).
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:
David23 wrote:
Actually, I'm an espresso drinker. Wife drinks lattes. His and hers boilers. :grin:
.
Thank God, I thought it might be a Mini owner thing.
David - How can you tell what your espressos taste like if you mix them with milk & drink them cold? Try at least sipping the espresso to see if its sweet, sour, bitter?? How would you know if you have the temp right? How much milk do you mix it with? Steamed?
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

John,
Sorry, I realize this is all sacrilege. I have been sipping the shot, just enough to try and understand the differences between each pull. I have definitely been able to tell when it is more bitter, or a little sour (haven't hit sweet yet) However my tasting experience is pretty limited, so I am not sure i know exactly how a really good shot should taste. I can still tell to some degree what shots are better than others when mixed with some milk and poured over ice. (about 3-4 oz milk to 2 oz espresso) I have tried it lately with steamed milk, makes a different drink, but very nice. I know reading this is probably just a nightmare to most of the espresso enthusiasts, but I have never liked drinking hot coffee, and prefer cold drinks. However I do really like the taste of coffee, and am anxious to learn more about how to make it better etc.
RapidCoffee

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:Again, to be perfectly honest, the naked pours I get with the 53mm Vivaldi are not nearly as impressive as the "slow, syrupy" naked pours I've done on 58mm machines (ike E-61s).
New S1 owner here, hope it's okay to join in the fun. I'm finding the same thing: naked pours are not quite as impressive on the S1 as my E61 box. But they're not bad:
S1porn.jpg
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This is an original S1, no preinfusion. I replaced the dispersion block (original owners were pod people), presumably with the thinner block that permits updosing. No nutating required, just a simple level tamp. I've been known to use the WDT on occasion. ;-)
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

Looks great to me. So it started out that even? Man, do I have a ways to go!
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

I don't know if any pour ever starts out looking like that! Normally there will be a few drops, then streams, then one nice cone hopefully in the center.

My theory on why a pour from the Vivaldi never looks as impressive as the E61 pours is simple: 53mm basket vs 58mm basket. Wider basket/wider cone.

RC - Nice to see you've made it over. Lots of good info here for the new Vivaldi owner.
RapidCoffee

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by RapidCoffee »

Thanks for the welcome. :grin: As John says, the pours don't start out that way. That was probably 20ml into the shot. You should see a uniform pattern of espresso beads appearing on the bottom of the filter basket several seconds after you start the pump. These beads will start to drip, possibly at several points, but water tension should pull them into one stream within a few seconds. Here is a collage of one of my first S1 pours, IIRC slightly ristretto, which shows the transition pretty well:
NekkidCollage.jpg
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Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

Very nice looking pours. I now have something to aim for ! :bounce:

One thing I notice is you don't get as much of a cone shape as on the E-61. I'm not sure if that is just a difference of diameter or not.

I had the same 53mm vs 58mm discussion with a couple of well respected espresso experts recently. I was saddened to hear they prefer the 58mm. The theory they have is that most of the coffee fines are extracted from the upper layers, so a wider basket is better. I countered with arguments about reduced channelling, longer flow path, easier nutation, etc., but I suppose I wasn't convincing enough. They still say the taste is better on the E-61. I didn't have enough time to find out what "better" meant in terms of taste (more clear, more body, etc).

The debate has been discussed at length in other forums. Anyone care to describe the differences here? (Warning: it may get nasty). :grin:
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

JohnB wrote:I don't know if any pour ever starts out looking like that! Normally there will be a few drops, then streams, then one nice cone hopefully in the center.

My theory on why a pour from the Vivaldi never looks as impressive as the E61 pours is simple: 53mm basket vs 58mm basket. Wider basket/wider cone.
Mine starts out with the drops which are very dark, then a couple of streams, that converge in the center about a third of the way into the shot The color lightens progressively as the shot proceeds. I have noticed sometimes the entire bottom of the portafilter is not entirely covered, it may have a small gap in an area. I assume this is evidence of some type of channeling? I do have the striping, which is encouraging.

Rapid, really enjoyed the sequence photos. They are helpful, thanks.
RapidCoffee

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:I had the same 53mm vs 58mm discussion with a couple of well respected espresso experts recently. I was saddened to hear they prefer the 58mm.
...
The debate has been discussed at length in other forums. Anyone care to describe the differences here? (Warning: it may get nasty). :grin:
This is a tough one to answer. I've been comparing the S1 to my Vetrano (with grouphead thermometer) for the past few weeks, with inconclusive results. If pressed, I'd say the S1 pours are sweeter but flatter, with a narrower range of flavors in the cup. That's likely due to either flat vs. humped temperature profiles, or my imagination. :roll: Depending on the coffee, sometimes I prefer the DB shots, sometimes the HX. It also depends on whether I'm drinking a straight shot or a capp.

In this comparison, I cannot reasonably determine the effect of the grouphead size on taste. You'd really need two otherwise identical machines, one with a 58mm group and the other with a 53mm group. Grouphead size effects are going to be swamped by brew temp profile differences between these machines.

The 58mm standard does have one significant advantage: a wider range of options in tampers, portafilters, and filter baskets. I really miss my ridgeless baskets - are any available for the S1? And of course it's annoying to have three 58mm tampers, five 58mm portafilters, over a dozen 58mm filter baskets... none of which fit the Spaz. Ka-ching! There goes another $100+ in accessories...
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote: This is a tough one to answer. I've been comparing the S1 to my Vetrano (with grouphead thermometer) for the past few weeks, with inconclusive results. If pressed, I'd say the S1 pours are sweeter but flatter, with a narrower range of flavors in the cup. That's likely due to either flat vs. humped temperature profiles, or my imagination. :roll: Depending on the coffee, sometimes I prefer the DB shots, sometimes the HX. It also depends on whether I'm drinking a straight shot or a capp.
One difference would be the Vetrano's pre infusion which I'm guessing your S1V1 might not have yet??
RapidCoffee

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by RapidCoffee »

Yes indeed, thanks for pointing that out. So far my S1V1 is pretty much stock, no preinfusion.

Preinfusion may help reduce channelling. In the absence of channelling, its impact on taste is still being debated. Some claim that too much preinfusion can muddy the flavors. I have played around with line pressure preinfusion on my Vetrano (middle position on the lever) and tend to agree with this.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

RapidCoffee wrote: I really miss my ridgeless baskets - are any available for the S1?
Yes, I miss my ridgeless LM basket as well. It was better made than the LaSpaziale baskets as well. The holes on my stock Vivaldi double basket are way off to one side.

I don't know of any ridgeless baskets out there for the Vivaldi. Too bad, it would solve the tight backet removal annoyance too. I'm looking for a triple basket as well, but I don't think they are available any more.

There is one thing I like about the Vivaldi baskets. The lip roles over the edge of the PF so I don't need to clean the little ledge with my fingernail.

Also, thanks for shedding some light on the taste differences between the Vivaldi and E-61. It's very helpful to have some "back to back" comparison.
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote:Yes indeed, thanks for pointing that out. So far my S1V1 is pretty much stock, no preinfusion.

Preinfusion may help reduce channelling. In the absence of channelling, its impact on taste is still being debated. Some claim that too much preinfusion can muddy the flavors. I have played around with line pressure preinfusion on my Vetrano (middle position on the lever) and tend to agree with this.
I find that it depends on the dose & sometimes the beans. If I couldn't control the length of the P/I or just turn it off as desired I would prefer not to have it. The lightly roasted Terroir Ethiopian espressos taste best with no p/i & light 13-14g doses. For other more complex s/o & blends I like 3 seconds w/15g doses & 6 seconds with 17-18g doses but nothing is fixed. When ever I get in something different I try a variety of doses/temps & many different pre infusion times to see what I like best.

I got used to pulling shots with no p/i the first 7 months I had the S1 so I don't find it necessary to get a good pour. If it didn't improve what I get in the cup I'd just leave it off. Note that in the original H-B S1 review it received an 8 for "excellent espresso" but that bumped up to 8.5 for the S1V2 strictly due to the effective programmable p/i.
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

Having only owned my E61 machine (Vetrano) for 2 weeks I didn't have enough time to accumulate much in the way of accessories. The only real drawback is the lack of an over the counter triple basket. Having to fork over $50-$80 to get a triple basket made up that only holds a couple grams more then the double is ridiculous.
RapidCoffee

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by RapidCoffee »

Agreed. I've never been a big fan of the triple basket. 99% of my pulls are doubles.

However, I like to prepare the puck (grind, dose, distribute, tamp) directly in the filter basket, while leaving the portafilter locked in the grouphead. To avoid disturbing the tamped puck, I removed the S1 PF spring clip. Now the filter basket slips easily in and out of the PF, which would be great, except that it isn't held in securely when I go to dump the spent puck in the knockbox. This is usually only a minor annoyance.* Unfortunately it's an annoyance every time I pull a shot, otherwise it wouldn't be worth mentioning.

Yeah, I know: I could leave the basket clamped in the PF. But I like my method better, and all it requires is a ridgeless basket. Hopefully someone will start manufacturing them for the S1, and for a reasonable price (baskets should cost $8, not $80). What's the point of the ridge, anyway? I never could figure that one out.

* Except when the spent puck slips out and hot wet espresso grinds spray my kitchen wall. :oops:
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote:
However, I like to prepare the puck (grind, dose, distribute, tamp) directly in the filter basket, while leaving the portafilter locked in the grouphead. To avoid disturbing the tamped puck, I removed the S1 PF spring clip. Now the filter basket slips easily in and out of the PF, which would be great, except that it isn't held in securely when I go to dump the spent puck in the knockbox. This is usually only a minor annoyance.* Unfortunately it's an annoyance every time I pull a shot, otherwise it wouldn't be worth mentioning.
I did that for awhile last year but I did tire of the knocking issues. Now I just dose directly into my bottomless p/f assy. Since I weigh the beans, grind, dose it goes quickly. You might try tweaking the L/S p/f springs to relieve the tension as Zoey did or just buy 58mm LM springs(Chas's solution) so you can pop the basket in & out easily.
RapidCoffee

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by RapidCoffee »

I already tried a couple of 58mm spring clips (from my QuickMill and LM portafilters). The problem is, even with a looser clip, the basket still "clicks" into place as the ridge locks into the wire. I won't take the chance of disturbing the puck in that way. IMHO a ridgeless basket is the best solution.
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote:I already tried a couple of 58mm spring clips (from my QuickMill and LM portafilters). The problem is, even with a looser clip, the basket still "clicks" into place as the ridge locks into the wire. I won't take the chance of disturbing the puck in that way. IMHO a ridgeless basket is the best solution.
I have to wonder how much you gain by dosing into the basket as opposed to dosing into the complete p/f assy. Does dropping a cold basket into the hot p/f offset any gains over the temp loss of removing the whole assy? Or are you actually considering juggling a hot basket during the dose/tamp sequence?
RapidCoffee

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by RapidCoffee »

No, I leave the baskets out of the PF until it's time to pull the shot. The heavy S1 PF masses about 20X as much as the basket, so any temp drop from the basket is negligible. You'll lose more heat by removing the PF from the grouphead for more than a few seconds.

Main advantage: easier for me to prepare the puck (all aspects: grind, dose, distribute, tamp). Minor advantages: PF stays hotter, no need to wipe out wet basket, much easier to prepare several baskets ahead of time when you're pulling shots for a crowd, etc. Disadvantages: you occasionally have to endure someone telling you to leave the basket in the PF "the way God intended it". :shock: And it works best with a ridgeless basket.
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote:And it works best with a ridgeless basket.
Check out the pics I posted of today's project in the Accessories forum & let me know what you think.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1032
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

Image

This morning's pull. They are getting better. This actually pulled pretty even very early on. About 25 secs, so in the ball park. John, I have been finding my "tasting" each shot is taking about half the shot now. I guess as they taste better, I am getting to really enjoy the espresso hot also.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

Man. :o These naked shots are looking good !

I seem to be going backwards. My naked shots are getting worse and worse. Seems like my first ones were the best. I'm not sure what it is but I'm getting some very uneven extractions. Lot's of channelling. I'm not getting that slow, even drip at the start, all joining in the center half way through. It seems to be all coming out of one area (classic channelling).

I'll try dosing less, grinding finer and tamping with less pressure. I roasted a fresh batch of Gautemalan. If that doesn't work, that pre-infusion chamber might be coming sooner than I thought! :-(

David....that big sticker above the resevoir peels of super easy with a fingernail under one corner.
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

Thanks Endo, I was very happy with today's pulls. I am starting to get a better idea of how to proceed and improve. I also switched to another shop's espresso blend, and it made all the difference in the world. Pulled better, and certainly tastes better.
I'm sure you will figure out the channeling. I am sure I am getting some also, just not on this shot in the photo. I have been doing pretty much what you do (?); overfill the basket without settling, then I use a little wooden skewer to move the grounds around the basket top to evenly fill the edges and level. Then gently nutate, and tamp with the espro, trying to make sure I am as level as possible. I had the two shot button programed for about a 25-28 sec. pull, but I think I like using the manual stop of the pull with the single shot button which is not programed. I have the pre infusion chamber on mine, so maybe that is helping.

Yes, I have noticed your posts about removing stickers, haven't decided yet, but they will probably come off soon.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

David23 wrote: Yes, I have noticed your posts about removing stickers, haven't decided yet, but they will probably come off soon.
I removed the big ugly sticker over the resevoir, but I left the ETL stickers on. I also simply removed and carefully relocated my Manufacturers sticker inside on the right of the frame (where they used to place it). I think if anyone ever wanted to buy my machine, they would prefer to have these stickers (with manufacture date, etc).

It looks much cleaner now from the front.....when you're on your knees praying to the naked PF gods. :lol:

Oh, by the way, anybody looking for a good article on perfecting the naked pour.....check this out:

http://www.home-barista.com/naked-extraction.html
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

David23 wrote: This morning's pull. They are getting better. This actually pulled pretty even very early on. About 25 secs, so in the ball park. John, I have been finding my "tasting" each shot is taking about half the shot now. I guess as they taste better, I am getting to really enjoy the espresso hot also.
Your pour looks great! We'll be asking you for advice soon. :lol: If you are using a good Espresso blend or S/O & pull the shot correctly your shots should be delicious. Try some of the well known blends & compare what you taste to the descriptions on their websites. You may not taste everything they mention but if you are getting most of the flavors they talk about you'll know you are doing things right. Experimenting with different temp settings & doses will bring out a variety of flavors you might not notice otherwise. Some you will like & some you won't but if you don't play with it you'll never know what you can get out of that particular espresso. Once you are comfortable with your ability to produce a nice 25 sec pour try some longer, thicker pours in the 35-40sec range. You will normally get less volume in the cup but the shot "can" be much sweeter & richer. It doesn't always work out that way but the longer Ristretto style shots are my favorites.
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

Thanks John, I'm working hard to develop my skills and understanding. This board and experienced people like yourself is helping quite a lot.

I have already noticed dramatic differences in beans just from my different local fresh roast shops. I plan to mail order some other beans this week to try out. I have also begun to play with temps, and am realizing its importance. Actually an old post of yours about getting the group up to proper temp with multiple blank shots was enlightening. I have been able to taste and pretty much eliminate sour with proper attention to the temperature. However, even with about three blank shots, I still am finding my second real pull usually tastes better. I've bumped my temp to 94C for the current local roast bean I am using.

I keep reading about the Ristretto shots. Is it just a finer grind to get a longer pour? I'll try it.

Thanks again for the help and encouragement.
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

David23 wrote:Thanks John, I'm working hard to develop my skills and understanding. This board and experienced people like yourself is helping quite a lot.

I have already noticed dramatic differences in beans just from my different local fresh roast shops. I plan to mail order some other beans this week to try out. I have also begun to play with temps, and am realizing its importance. Actually an old post of yours about getting the group up to proper temp with multiple blank shots was enlightening. I have been able to taste and pretty much eliminate sour with proper attention to the temperature. However, even with about three blank shots, I still am finding my second real pull usually tastes better. I've bumped my temp to 94C for the current local roast bean I am using.

I keep reading about the Ristretto shots. Is it just a finer grind to get a longer pour? I'll try it.

Thanks again for the help and encouragement.
You shouldn't need more then two 2-2.5 oz flushes to get the grouphead up to temp after the machine has been idle for awhile. If its only been 5 minutes 1 should do it. Did you buy your machine from CC? If so the temp offset should be spot on as they check it with a Scace Device before shipping.

A finer grind is the most consistent way to get nice long shots.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

OK. Here's the latest. Still dosed 17g (little less than level, then tamped with 30 lbs, just to the ridge). Ground finer and distributed much more carefully.

Removed the PF wire, took out the basket (left the PF in the machine) and did a good careful WDT prior to tamp. (Love removing the basket, it's the only way to go).

Pulled better (25 sec Ristretto), but still a little left side bias (not perfect yet). I still say this is much harder than a E-61 to get perfect. Anyway, here's what I get:
Dose 17g, basket out of PF
Dose 17g, basket out of PF
dose.jpg (35.52 KiB) Viewed 50620 times
5 seconds in, slight left side bias?
5 seconds in, slight left side bias?
5sec.jpg (61.59 KiB) Viewed 50619 times
20 sec, looking good
20 sec, looking good
20sec.jpg (51.7 KiB) Viewed 50621 times
Next time I'll go a 1 notch finer to see if I can get the nice beads like John's (aka RapidCoffee). I'm not sure it's possible since mine is a vibe pump without p/i, but I'll try.

Rapid John, did you get 20ml from that shot? Looks very tight to me.
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

I'm surprised to see that much liquid after only 5 secs. I'll have to take a better look in the morning but I may not even see drips until after that. What pressure are you pulling shots at?
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote: Removed the PF wire, took out the basket (left the PF in the machine) and did a good careful WDT prior to tamp. (Love removing the basket, it's the only way to go).
I'm glad you guys talked me into making a ridgeless basket as it is nice to be able to easily remove, dose, tamp & reinstall the basket in the p/f.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

JohnB wrote:I'm surprised to see that much liquid after only 5 secs. I'll have to take a better look in the morning but I may not even see drips until after that. What pressure are you pulling shots at?
Sorry, it was 5 seconds from first sign of beads (or about 10 seconds after pump start). Pressure with the blind basket is 9.65 bar. I figure closer to 9 bar during an actual shot (but I have no brew gauge). I was thinking of lowering a pressure next, but I think I'll wait for the p/i first since that might help the ramp-up.
JohnB wrote:
I'm glad you guys talked me into making a ridgeless basket as it is nice to be able to easily remove, dose, tamp & reinstall the basket in the p/f.
Glad enough to make me one? ;-) Well I tried. I think it may be time for me to try a little metal working myself.
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

Endo, I had this evening's pull go a little off to one side also. I guess the challenge is getting good results consistently. I do like your tamp, mine doesn't look quite as clean, and isn't all the way down to the ridge like yours. Does the WDT loosen everything up so that it tamps down further? Do you tap the basket while dosing to settle the grounds?
If you remove the wire, so the basket comes out easily, how do you knock out the puck without the basket flying across the room? With my old Gaggia, I could get the basket out with my fingers, but it was tight enough to stay in when knocking the puck out in the trash. No wire, just the snug fit.
RapidCoffee

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:OK. Here's the latest. Still dosed 17g (little less than level, then tamped with 30 lbs, just to the ridge). Ground finer and distributed much more carefully.
That puck looks very nice. 17g is OK, maybe a bit on the high side; I'd recommend downdosing to about 15g until you're happy with your pours. Brew pressure: you could reduce it a little (0.5 bar), but you're in the right ballpark. Preinfusion may help. How fresh is the coffee?
Endo wrote:Pulled better (25 sec Ristretto), but still a little left side bias (not perfect yet). I still say this is much harder than a E-61 to get perfect.
...
Rapid John, did you get 20ml from that shot? Looks very tight to me.
Ristrettos, oddly enough, should take longer to pull (Al's Rule), perhaps 35-40 seconds at a slower flow rate. Are you measuring crema volume? If so, 20ml is very little.

My goal is almost always normale doubles, with a brew ratio of about 50%. This typically translates into 45-50ml volume (including crema), with a pour time of 25-30 seconds. But I stop the pour when it goes blond, regardless. Here's another collage, showing a 15.3g dose, 50ml volume pour:
collage1.jpg
collage1.jpg (129.38 KiB) Viewed 50579 times
I know, my latte art sucks.

Let's not forget: how did the shot taste? After all, technique refinements are a means to an end...
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

David23 wrote:I guess the challenge is getting good results consistently.
That's been my biggest struggle. I change beans a lot too, making it that much harder. I'll get there eventually.
David23 wrote:I do like your tamp, mine doesn't look quite as clean, and isn't all the way down to the ridge like yours. Does the WDT loosen everything up so that it tamps down further?
Tight fitting convex tamper with a polish makes everything tidy. Do a NSEW if the tamper is a bit loose.

Yes. WDT fluffs it up a lot. Sometimes I've dosed into a little container, WDT'd it there to break up clumps, then poured it back into the doser and dosed again. Seems to reduce the "over-fluffed" effect but still gets rid of the clumps.
David23 wrote:Do you tap the basket while dosing to settle the grounds?
No way. I'm very much against disturbing the grounds. No settling, no tamper whacking. No grounds violence at all. :lol:
David23 wrote:If you remove the wire, so the basket comes out easily, how do you knock out the puck without the basket flying across the room?
Yes. It can come out easily if you are not careful. Advice: Keep your knockbox high up. Then move the PF up and then down onto the rubber knock bar. The puck will fall out and you can then use your thumb to hold the basket in when you lift it back up. Still, a little basket resistance makes it much easier.

Gotta get one of the JohnB ridgeless specials. :bounce:
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

RapidCoffee wrote: I'd recommend downdosing to about 15g until you're happy with your pours. Brew pressure: you could reduce it a little (0.5 bar), but you're in the right ballpark.
Yes. That's what I was thinking as well.
RapidCoffee wrote:How fresh is the coffee?
This one was 2 week old. Got a fresh roast degassing right now (day 2). I'll try that next.
RapidCoffee wrote:Ristrettos, oddly enough, should take longer to pull (Al's Rule), perhaps 35-40 seconds at a slower flow rate. Are you measuring crema volume? If so, 20ml is very little.
Yes. It was a bit fast. I'm not measuring very accurately (usually with crema). I'll use my graduated clear glass next time to get a better volume estimation.
RapidCoffee wrote:Here's another collage, showing a 15.3g dose, 50ml volume pour:
Man, your's look good. I need a video!
RapidCoffee wrote:Let's not forget: how did the shot taste? After all, technique refinements are a means to an end...
Taste is getting much better. More body and flavors. :bounce:
David23

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by David23 »

You guys are both really giving me a lot to shoot for! However, all the information you are contributing is a big help in my progress. Rapid, man.... that looks really good. I am going to study my times and volume closer and try to do a couple longer shots to see the differences. Also, I think your latte art looks great. I do a pretty good ameba with stunning consistency.

Endo, thanks for the tips on the dose and tamp. I will continue to experiment. All the suggestions are helpful.
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

I wonder how many video & conventional digital cameras have been bought just to "film" espresso pours??

"Gotta get one of the JohnB ridgeless specials."

I don't mind making more but I"d have to charge enough to cover my shop time. The first one always takes longer & having two would be nice so I'll see how long it takes to turn one out now that I know the best way to go about it. You will still have to work some of the kinks out of the stock p/f spring to get the desired slip fit.
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chas
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Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by chas »

JohnB wrote:I wonder how many video & conventional digital cameras have been bought just to "film" espresso pours??
To broaden your question, I wonder how many video cameras have been purchased just to post crap on YouTube! :lol:
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

JohnB wrote:I wonder how many video & conventional digital cameras have been bought just to "film" espresso pours??
Well, if you can't beatem...........

Here a YouTube video of my latest naked pour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur60A4aE1SI

Very sorry for the focus (cheap camera).

It's a 1 oz (30 ml) shot of 13 day old Yergcheffe. Total time 30 seconds. A bit fast at the start? Possibly a tiny bit finer grind is reguired. No nice beads at the beginning like on a E-61, but the pour length and shot volume is almost perfect. Machine needs optional progressive pre-infusion I think. Lots of intital crema that reduced to about 1/5 of the volume after the shot stops.

I only have two hands so unfortunately I couldn't film the tamp. But here's what it looked like anyway, in a still photo:
Tamp for Naked YouTube shot
Tamp for Naked YouTube shot
tamp_yerg.jpg (37.01 KiB) Viewed 50492 times
Oh....any most importantly of course.....the taste of this shot was excellent (in the top 5 so far).
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

You don't need an E61 to get nice thick beads at the beginning of a shot & you don't need pre infusion either. You make p/i sound like a crutch for poor technique. Keep practicing.
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:[
Here a YouTube video of my latest naked pour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur60A4aE1SI

Very sorry for the focus (cheap camera).

It's a 1 oz (30 ml) shot of 13 day old Yergcheffe. Total time 30 seconds. A bit fast at the start?
A bit fast would be a massive understatement! Looks like you forgot to tamp. Tighten up the grind.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

JohnB wrote: A bit fast would be a massive understatement! Looks like you forgot to tamp. Tighten up the grind.
Been there many times. Wish it were that simple.

My grind is actually pretty tight (on the factory Mazzer "zero" sticker with new burrs). Calibrated on other machines as well. My tamp is 30 lbs (with a clicking Epsro to check). I'm dosing 16.3g.

Check my time and volume. They are 1 oz in 30 seconds. Not a super fast pour, but I agree it could be a bit tighter.

Also look at all the "mouse tails" that join. No channeling and good technique (dissected the puck afterward just to verify).

I think you are being fooled by what appears to be an OPV pressure that is too high. Also explains the amount of crema. My new theory is that the 53mm "square" pucks (longer brew path) make this machine very sensitive to variations in pressure. Also note the center "puff" midway through the shot (at 17 seconds). I'll lower it by 1 bar and post another video (my current pressure is a high 9.7 bar).

I believe p/i might allow someone to go to these higher pressures since it expands and strengthens the puck, but not without it.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

Lowered the pressure slightly to from 140 psi to 135psi and tigthened the grind 2 notches on the Mazzer. Longer shot (50 seconds), but still a very fast ramp-up at the beginning (no little beads).

My shot actually looked exactly like this other Mini video:

http://www.vimeo.com/1213290

And nothing like this one on the rotary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTWTntow ... annel_page

I starting to think it must be a Mini (vibe pump) thing. Oh well. That's all the tweaking I'll be doing until I get my p/i.

Side Note: Chas, look at the Mini pressure gauge in the first video. It starts vibrating at less tha 3 bar (BEFORE the OPV opens).
JohnB

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by JohnB »

It was way too blurry to see that center puff you mentioned but why are you trying to pull shots at 9.7b? 8.5-9b is the standard so why so high?
Last edited by JohnB on Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

See my last post. (posted at the same time as your comment). My machine came with 140psi (factory preset) measured with a PF gauge. Typically, this would give a little less during a real pour. So I believe I'm very close to the "optimal" 9 bar.
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chas
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Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by chas »

Endo wrote: Side Note: Chas, look at the Mini pressure gauge in the first video. It starts vibrating at less tha 3 bar (BEFORE the OPV opens).
I'm pretty sure that's the effect of the Progressive Preinfusion. When the pump side of the OPV valve hits 9bar it will open, then close again immediately as the pressure reduces. However, at this point the piston in the PI chamber is still compressing which keeps the pressure at the gauge and at the puck lower than 9bar but the pump itself is actually at 9bar and causing the needle fluctuation during this period.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

There's no flow past the p/i piston (just fills slowly) so I thought it would not vibrate (open/close) like an OPV. Just interesting, that's all.
Endo

Re: Going Naked (Warning: Espresso Porn)

Post by Endo »

I was rushing this morning to make my wife's morning Latte. One of my kids grabbed my arm at the end of my tamp and my loose PF basket hit the counter. The grounds fell out. I didn't have time so I just stuck them back in, retamped quickly and pulled the best, most uniform naked shot yet....Great Success !! (Borat accent).

Fluke is not just a multi-meter.
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