Noisy Pump over time?

Post by **dc_ch** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:44 am

So after two months of golden rotary pump silence, my pump makes as much noise as my Francis X1. What could this be and how do I make it stop?

Carl B

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:45 am

It's always possible that you have a part going bad, but most folks that have reported this have found that they had inadvertently done something that restricts water flow to the S1.

Post by **dc_ch** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:44 pm

hmmm I will check it out, but I know the pressure gage on my regulator shows 24PSI.

Thanks Chas

Carl

Post by **Niko** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:16 pm

Did you change anything? Such as shutting off the water for some reason and then turning it back on, things can get lodged in the plumbing and cause a restriction after the regulator. These are very temperamental machines, like Italian sports cars, any little thing can wreak havoc in their little pipelines. Mine changed behavior just by shutting the water off to check the filters, after turning the water back on - the unit sounded different for a couple of days. It probably had air in the system.

chas · Post by **chas** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:20 am

dc_ch wrote:hmmm I will check it out, but I know the pressure gage on my regulator shows 24PSI.

Thanks Chas

Carl

What's the pressure difference when the S1 is running versus when it is not running?

Post by **dc_ch** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:12 pm

Niko,
I know that I did nothing to change the water flow prior to reporting it here and then trying to monkey with it to make it better.

Chas,
It drops like 8 PSI when the pump is on. I did manage to twist the knob on the regulator and increased the pressure a bit.

I verified that everything is operational in terms of the plumbing. I will drain the system and see if there is any air in the system.

CarlB

Post by **dc_ch** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:08 pm

UGH!!! So I still have a rotary pump that is louder than my old FrancisFrancis X1.

I did talk to a tech at Chris's a while back he said the lead cause is a drop in pressure to the machine that can cause that. Well I took out everything that could constrict it, inculding running it with no filters (was only temporary) or pressure regulator (still have that off).

Is the pump bad or can I do something to adjust for it? I am still making great coffee every day with it though...

Thanks,

Carl B

Post by **Niko** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:47 pm

Mine starts to get louder sometimes because of a loose panel or drip tray not fastened all the way in. Any little loose thing can cause this, it can also be the bracket that the capacitor is mounted on - sometimes this can get loose and make the machine seem really noisy. My cups rattle sometimes when they're too close together, I'm telling you the sounds are endless.
I noticed my water pressure wavers up and down, sometimes I have to make an adjustment to reduce it when the machine starts to drip more from the expansion valve more frequently and sometimes I crank it open all the way. Right now I have the regulator cranked all the way open because the pump was kind of buzzing slightly, I get paranoid with every little sound the S1 makes so I keep a very close eye and ear on everything.
Can you shoot some video of your machine in action so maybe we can determine what it is?

ScottW · Post by **ScottW** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:14 pm

dc_ch wrote:UGH!!! So I still have a rotary pump that is louder than my old FrancisFrancis X1.
Carl B

Mine suddenly got very noisy and I traced it down to the capacitor bracket. The bolt came loose and allowed the capacitor to swivel down and touch the motor, causing quite a loud noise. More description here:
http://www.rimpo.org/wforum/viewtopic.php?t=347

...Scott

Post by **dc_ch** » Tue May 01, 2007 8:27 am

OK that will give me something to look for. Something that simple would be a godsend....

So if I am reading the other posing correctly, I can see this by just removing the front panel? Did you use any loctite or lock washer to keep it from backing out again? Or just good ol german torque rules "gut n tight"?

Carl B

ScottW · Post by **ScottW** » Tue May 01, 2007 10:13 am

dc_ch wrote:So if I am reading the other posing correctly, I can see this by just removing the front panel? Did you use any loctite or lock washer to keep it from backing out again?

Yes - just remove the front panel, the bracket is attached to the front of the motor and should suspend the capacitor directly above the motor. In my case, the capacitor was "laying" on the motor. I just rotated the capacitor up where it should be, and tightened the bracket bolt. If it comes loose again, I'll take stronger measures (lock washer, loctite, etc.) but so far it has stayed put.

Post by **Niko** » Tue May 01, 2007 11:41 am

I would not use a thread locker of any type on that part. Just in case you ever need to change the capacitor, it would make it harder to remove it. The only thing I would use a thread locker on the machine would be the PF handles, those are already glued in by LaSpaz.

ScottW · Post by **ScottW** » Tue May 01, 2007 11:54 am

Niko wrote:I would not use a thread locker of any type on that part. Just in case you ever need to change the capacitor, it would make it harder to remove it.

That's sort of the whole point... to make it harder to remove, so it doesn't loosen from vibration. Properly applied, a true thread locker compound will prevent vibration loosening but not prevent removal. But so far after I tightened it up, it has stayed put without any help -- so I ain't gonna fix it unless it breaks. :-)

Post by **Niko** » Tue May 01, 2007 12:06 pm

Yeah, you make a valid point.
Only reason I said don't use thread locker is because I know someone with an S1 that needs to replace his capacitor. He'd be screwed (no pun intended) if there was thread lock on it. But hey, if it stops it from moving - I'm all for it. I think it's extremely rare that the capacitor needs replacing anyway.

ScottW · Post by **ScottW** » Tue May 01, 2007 12:16 pm

Niko wrote:Only reason I said don't use thread locker is because I know someone with an S1 that needs to replace his capacitor. He'd be screwed (no pun intended) if there was thread lock on it.

Uh, NO he wouldn't. The proper thread locker will NOT prevent removal. It fills the threads and dampens vibration to prevent vibration loosening, but remains pliable so the fastener can still be removed. Loctite 222 and 242 for example are specifically designed to allow future removal.

There are also permanent thread lockers -- like Loctite 270, 272, etc -- that will harden and not allow removal. Obviously, those should not be used on something you might have to take apart later.

Post by **Niko** » Tue May 01, 2007 12:20 pm

Unless he uses the same stuff LaSpaz uses on the handles...that stuff is damn near impossible to remove. When I twisted mine off, I thought I was going to bust handles they were sealed in there that GOOD.

You're right, different strength thread lockers are color-coded, I use the Blue stuff on my things and I haven't tried to remove those yet.

Post by **dc_ch** » Tue May 01, 2007 2:21 pm

I use the red threadlock on my rc Monster truck all the time. Red is mearly the color of the bottle as the liquid is blue, however the stuff that is normally marketed in the blue containers is meant for serious stuff that you hope to never remove again....

Carl B

Post by **Niko** » Tue May 01, 2007 2:31 pm

If I recall correctly, the Blue stuff is supposed to have 150lb locking strength. The Red I'm not sure about, maybe that's a stronger version. I'll have to read the bottle when I get home.

ScottW · Post by **ScottW** » Tue May 01, 2007 3:37 pm

Niko wrote:If I recall correctly, the Blue stuff is supposed to have 150lb locking strength. The Red I'm not sure about, maybe that's a stronger version. I'll have to read the bottle when I get home.

With Loctite brand, the bottles are red -- the liquid is blue for the removable line, and red for the permanent line. Both lines come in a variety of formulations with varying strengths, heat resistance, solvent resistence, etc.

Post by **Niko** » Wed May 02, 2007 11:14 pm

So Carl...
Did you check and tighten the capacitor bolt?
Any success getting rid of the noise?

Post by **dc_ch** » Thu May 03, 2007 7:41 pm

Yes the bolt was loose. Nope that did not make it any quieter... Yes I did move the capacitor off of the motor.

This weekend it is gonna get torn down and examined!! This has gone on too long. Thanks guys. I will let ya know what I find.

Carl B

Post by **Niko** » Fri May 11, 2007 11:33 pm

dc_ch wrote:hmmm I will check it out, but I know the pressure gage on my regulator shows 24PSI.

Thanks Chas

Carl

Chas wrote: What's the pressure difference when the S1 is running versus when it is not running?

dc_ch wrote: Chas,
It drops like 8 PSI when the pump is on. I did manage to twist the knob on the regulator and increased the pressure a bit.

CarlB

CarlB,
If I run my machine at 16 psi it gets noisy too. Although you did raise it up a bit but you're still having the problems? So what did you discover last weekend?

Niko

Post by **dc_ch** » Sun May 20, 2007 4:41 pm

Haven't made time to rip it apart yet, however there is no time like the present.

I will report back with any findings of mine.

Carl B

PS Thanks for all of the ideas guys...

Post by **dc_ch** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:02 pm

OK so after stripping it all down, the noise appears to be coming from the back of the main motor that drives the pump. At the front of the motor, on the pump, there looks like some sort of adjustment, is that what I would need to adjust? I am trying to attach the picture for this.

Post by **Niko** » Mon May 28, 2007 2:17 pm

That's your group pressure adjustment.
By the looks of your manometer, looks like your incoming water pressure is in the stratosphere...not sure but that can be a partial cause to your noisy pump. I know the machine will operate at higher pressures but it doesn't mean it'll be really smooth.

Also, what kind of countertop is your S1 sitting on?

Post by **dc_ch** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:48 pm

Countertop is ~1.75" thick concrete

So what are the normal operating numbers for these gages?

In thinking that the pressure was too low, I took the regulator off. I will put that back on to see if it makes a difference.

Thanks,

Carl B

Post by **Niko** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:55 pm

dc_ch wrote:Countertop is ~1.75" thick concrete

Oh, OK...depending on what kind of countertop, the S1 can be noisy. Concrete will dampen any noise as well as granite, etc..

dc_ch wrote: In thinking that the pressure was too low, I took the regulator off. I will put that back on to see if it makes a difference.

It's OK also, the S1 can operate at the higher pressure, it looked really high on yours and I remembered that you're operating with a regulater and it looked too high for being on a regulator.

My S1 is really smooth and nearly silent after I moved it to another countertop. My VII is making the noises; vibrating, rattling and other nerve-racking oddities of sounds due to the wood counter it's on. I think it will also smooth out with more use since it's pretty new. I remembered my older S1 doing the same things but it got quieter with more use (besides moving it to another location).