Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VII?

If you have a question or comment specific to the VII that doesn't fit in any other VII category, submit it here.
Post Reply
JonF
Macchiatto
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:06 pm

Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VII?

Post by JonF » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:18 am

Hi again! My S1 VII is installed and running, and discovering there are lots of variables to work with! (Coming from a Livia 90, where the main control was how long I flushed before brewing).

I was interested in what percentage of you use preinfusion. Do you use it or do you prefer not to? thanks again . . .

MichaelS
Latte
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by MichaelS » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:00 am

yes, 3 seconds.

michael

peter
Ristretto
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:13 pm

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by peter » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:01 pm

4 seconds here.

Another relevant aspect would be the line pressure, I would think. When I put a regulator and dropped it from the city's 55psi to 28psi, the preinfusion became more sedate.
Vivaldi II, Compak K10 WBC, SC/TO, Ambex YM-2K

User avatar
slo
Barista
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:51 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by slo » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:25 pm

I always use pre-infusion!

8 seconds with 28 psi line pressure (Peter is right. The pressure used is very important) for 14-16 grams doubles and 3 seconds for 7-8 grams singles.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

User avatar
jbb
God Shot
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:49 pm

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by jbb » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:53 am

I've been toying with the idea of getting the v2 control board for my v1, mainly for the better temp control but also to check out the programmable PI. The cost is not outside the realm of possibility, especially if i elect not to replace the front panel with the dual manometer/brew pressure gauge.

For those who have played with the PI on the Vivaldi, what do you find to be the principal difference in the cup? I know that probably doesn't have a simple answer, but Is it just fewer blown shots due to channeling or do you find the resulting flavor profiles are significantly altered/enhanced? EDIT: Sorry, I see there is a whole segment of the website dedicated to people's experience with the PI.

Also, does having the built in pressure gauge up really contribute much to monitoring the process? Presumably once the pump kicks in after the programmed time it just quickly ramps from line pressure to your set group pressure.

JonF
Macchiatto
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:06 pm

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by JonF » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:10 pm

Thanks all! I am running off of a nice (but limited) RO unit, so my inlet pressure varies with the state of the accumulator tank. Pressure is running from a low of only 18 psi to a high of about 25. Flow rate is fine for the rotary pump, but I did up the pressure a little on the pump since the inlet was low. Perhaps this is just too low for preinfusion, but still quite happy with the coffee (still some dialing in to do, however).

User avatar
slo
Barista
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:51 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by slo » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:27 pm

JonF wrote:a low of only 18 psi to a high of about 25.
With this level of pressure supply variation, I would get a pressure regulator to stabilise it.

Even with the rotary pump pressure regulator, the inlet pressure has an effect on the outlet of the pump. Furthermore the pre-infusion will be pretty variable and unpredictable.

I have my inlet pressure regulator set at the lowest constantly available pressure from the main. I guess that 18 psi is normally a little low for pre-infusion but you can compensate a little with longer pre-infusion. You could also get a Flojet to crank up the pressure along with an accumulator. But now the cost is accumulating.

Hope this helps... a little.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

michael
God Shot
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:30 am

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by michael » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:26 pm

with 8 seconds of pi, how long do you run the shots after the pump comes on; whats your shot volume or weight on the shots with 8 seconds of pi 8)

User avatar
slo
Barista
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:51 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by slo » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:21 am

michael wrote:with 8 seconds of pi, how long do you run the shots after the pump comes on; whats your shot volume or weight on the shots with 8 seconds of pi
Until it blonds... ;-) I always keep an eye on the pour. Just because I like to look at it flow. It is kind of zen to look at it when it pours nicely. :drunken:
I have a timer set to 38 seconds (8 Pre-infusion and 30 pumped) just to get a feel of where things are. It will sometime run longer or shorter but the grind and dose is usually adjusted fr a 30 second pour.

The yield is about 1.5 to 2.5 once including crema.

The pre-infusion at 8 seconds gives me a 14 grams puck that is also completely wet but does not show any sign of liquid coffee at the basket.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

BIGBERTHA
Latte
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by BIGBERTHA » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:20 pm

What's the fastest/easiest way to test the water pressure going to my machine?

User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 2703
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by chas » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:34 pm

If you turn off your S1and let it cool down you can just read the street pressure off the boiler pressure gauge. If you are starting with a hot boiler, this isn't the fastest way but it's the easiest. Otherwise, if you want to use the pre-infusion feature you'll probably want to reduce your street pressure down to 2.5-3.0 bars and you'll need a pressure reducer with integrated pressure gauge to be able to set that. With that in place you can read the pressure right off that gauge.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.23 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B

BIGBERTHA
Latte
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by BIGBERTHA » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:16 pm

Thanks for the reply. So...are you saying that I shouldn't be using preinfusion unless I know what kind of pressure is going to my machine?

User avatar
slo
Barista
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:51 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by slo » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:24 pm

You should be using pre-infusion when and as long as you get the best taste that you can on your machine. You do not need to know at what pressure the water input is, but certainly knowing what the inlet pressure is and ensuring that it is stable will help a lot in achieving consistent results.

Pre-infusion is said to be good and I certainly can tell the difference in the extraction with and without it. But your may prefer no pre-infusion because it does not give good result with your overall method. You will have to experiment on this. The Vivaldi is one of the very few machine that give you so much flexibility on this aspect. Make good use of this flexibility. :grin:

I like long pre-infusion as it suits my method, taste and equipment. But this is me.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

JonF
Macchiatto
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:06 pm

Wonder what the LOWER limit for useful pressure is . . .

Post by JonF » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:26 pm

An interesting question might be what is the lower limit for line pressure? I have actually been thinking of adding the pre infusion chamber since my line pressure is lower than desired. (I live out in the country and run the machine of an RO unit which further reduces pressure).

User avatar
slo
Barista
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:51 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by slo » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:36 pm

Well that is a good question.
I think that the lowest pressure that get the whole puck wet without infusing through and within a reasonable time would be best. For the Vivaldi the maximum time is 8 seconds and I have done experimentation where I was getting pretty good wetting of the puck at 25-30 psi (1.5 - 2.5 bar). My goal was and is still to get a good wetting without compressing the puck.
There are advocate of higher pressures during pre-infusion, but I fail to see the theoretical benefit. Furthermore other than installing a boost pump I am stuck at 28 psi which is the highest stable pressure that I can get from the city line.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 2703
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by chas » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:05 pm

Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.23 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B

az erik
Espresso
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by az erik » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:11 pm

I had pushed this all the way up to 6 seconds and found my shots blonding very fast. I knocked back down to 2 and get really nicely striped, and tasty shots that don't blond 6 seconds too early. @ 2 seconds I'm happy and my group stays hotter. I'm thinking the addition of the cold water to the group doesn't help if making 3 back to back shots with 6 seconds of PI.
Expobar Pulser modded, plumbed in and out (now for sale)
Vivaldi S1 Black
Compak K6 Silencio
Compak K10 WBC (missed)
Bemhor roaster
Areopress at work w/Hario Skerton grinder

User avatar
JohnB
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:01 pm
Location: Northeastern Ct.

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by JohnB » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:48 pm

I don't know what your line pressure is but it typically takes a second or more for water to even get to the puck. With 2 seconds of P/I I doubt you are accomplishing any more then no P/I would. You can get nice shots with or without P/I but the idea of pre infusion is to thoroughly wet the grounds before full pressure. Typically that takes 6-7 seconds if you've ground correctly. You do need to grind finer when using P/I then you would without it or you will see early blonding/gushers.
Speedster/Bosco Sorrento/ K10WBC/K30/Bunnzilla
KvdW/Pullman/RB Tampers
Hario NCA 3 & 5s/Wooden Neck Dripper/Buono
Zassenhaus Knee Mill
Modded Hottop B

az erik
Espresso
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by az erik » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:41 pm

My line pressure is about 30, had a hell of a time getting that figure based from my gauge as I didn't have a T only end capped it so it'd hit 80 because I was doing it wrong. I get 1 or 2 drips from the PI @6 seconds. If I don't have a PF on and hit a single cup I get water instantly. and some odd noises. I'll have to get a video of those. I'm about half a # off of plugging the machine with the current blend so I can't grind much finer. I think I've got temp fluctuation as the first 4 shots without PI were looking and tasting great, with the pi it's kind of gone downhill, not lots just blondes @about 22 seconds for a 15.8g double counting a 4 second PI
Expobar Pulser modded, plumbed in and out (now for sale)
Vivaldi S1 Black
Compak K6 Silencio
Compak K10 WBC (missed)
Bemhor roaster
Areopress at work w/Hario Skerton grinder

User avatar
JohnB
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:01 pm
Location: Northeastern Ct.

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by JohnB » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:01 pm

Too bad you sold the K10 as it sounds like the K6 is lacking in adjustment if you can't stretch out your shot times pre blonding.
Speedster/Bosco Sorrento/ K10WBC/K30/Bunnzilla
KvdW/Pullman/RB Tampers
Hario NCA 3 & 5s/Wooden Neck Dripper/Buono
Zassenhaus Knee Mill
Modded Hottop B

az erik
Espresso
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by az erik » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:01 pm

Tell me about it :( I'm going to try dialing in the shot around 1.7oz, I'm thinking it's about 2 to 2.25 right now. All I have is Cimbali cups that are 3.25 with no lines so I don't have a good measurement anymore. I know with a firmer tamp I can lock the machine so going finer shouldn't be needed. Also need to Scace as I think I might have pushed the offset the wrong direction. (whole other post) Seems I've lost some of my crema as well. Need to get back to a known good then go from there.
Expobar Pulser modded, plumbed in and out (now for sale)
Vivaldi S1 Black
Compak K6 Silencio
Compak K10 WBC (missed)
Bemhor roaster
Areopress at work w/Hario Skerton grinder

nitpick
Americano
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by nitpick » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:01 am

Anecdotal data time:

I had my line pressure set to ~2BAR and never saw much difference between using preinfusion and not. Then, based on something I read here, I recently upped the line pressure to 3BAR. I think I'm using 4 seconds of preinfusion.

Long story short, the increased line pressure seems to have had a noticeable effect on shot to shot consistency of taste, taste overall, and the machine's forgiveness for a less-than-perfect dose/distribute/tamp. I also do not notice the characteristic (at least for mine) erosion in the top of the puck and my pucks are usually (though not always) dry and nearly perfect looking after the shot.

I hate to be so unscientific, but the machine just seems much "happier" at 3BAR of line pressure.

User avatar
innermusic
Cappuccino
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Preinfusion: How many of you are using it with the S1VI

Post by innermusic » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:57 pm

I'm really surprised at how big a deal the whole pre-infusion issue is. It's making a very noticeable difference with the way my shots pull, and the way they taste. I also find the process more forgiving, less demanding on the barista skills. I'm glad I learned my skills first on a more rudimentary machine, as I can appreciate the difference.

FYI so far I'm at 3 seconds PI.
Vivaldi II, Macap MXK, Baratza Vario, Aeropress, evolving taste buds...
http://www.steveholtmusic.com

Post Reply

Return to “VII General Q&A”