Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

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SwingT

Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by SwingT »

My vivaldi II arrives today.

Anything I should do prior to putting into service?

I read in other threads here where at one time you would want to drain the boiler to catch any metal particles - but the new inline screens seem to be catching that.

My water is soft - I'm putting in the 10 micron filter from Chriscoffee.

Suggestions, comments?
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chas
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Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by chas »

Did you buy the version with the 20A plug and do you have a 20A circuit ready for it? If not, you'll need a 20A to 15A adapter cable and you'll need to pop the top cover (warming tray) and flip the switch to 15A mode before you plug it in.
Chas
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SwingT

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by SwingT »

thanks Chas

Got the adapter plug so I'm good to go on that.

The unit is here - thought the drain kit might have some sort of popout - and there is an indent - but it isn't obvious - will have to be drilled, popped out, etc or something.

going to do a search on that now
SwingT

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by SwingT »

for anybody that finds this thread later -

edited after Chas info below

link to Drain Mod thread.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=279

I'm gonna give Richard's approach a try

Edited to add - and crossposted to the drain mod thread -

I drilled out the drip tray hole to 1/4 inch.

After reading Richard's post - I used about an 8 inch "tie wrap" or "cable tie" nylon tie and cinched it down pretty snugly over the black hose at the joint where it you slide the hose over the outlet to the "cup" that attaches with three screws to the bottom of the frame. Pulled it down quite snugly, to the point I was worried about putting too much strain and breaking something.

I wanted to improve on the seal around the perimeter of the "cup" but didn't want to use silicone sealant/caulk because it is tough to remove later.

I happened to have on hand, something called "permagum" which is basically used in refrigeration/air conditioning as a non-hardening sealant that remains pliable - a little stiffer than say silly putty - but can be worked like play dough. So, I rolled that between my hands to roll out thin tubular strips that I put on around the top edge of the tubular "seal" - when I tightened the three nuts I looked all the way round to make sure I had a full seal and was squeezing out the permagum.

My machine sits somewhat close to a sink, so I just left the drain hose full length and laid it out around the sink, and over the edge of the sink and stuck the hose down into the drain.

After a couple of days pulling multiple shots, dialing in grinder - setting volumetric dosing, playing with pressure settings - so far no leakage or issues.

Note: in initial testing of the drain - when I would fill the tray almost to the top with a large pitcher of water - the drain kit did not function correctly. I noticed that if I filled the tray to a little less than half - it seemed to work well. So,I thought I would try to see how it does in actual usage.

Seems to be working fine - as much as I have used the machine, if there were going to be problems, I would think they would have shown up by now.

If any issues arise, I will post about them.
Last edited by SwingT on Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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chas
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Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by chas »

Hopefully your drain kit will work fine with no issues. Other haven't been so lucky and have had to resort to different ways to seal up leaks. You should be able to search this forum and find those threads if needed.
Chas
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zoey

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by zoey »

Was there any information regarding periodic cleaning of the screens? I just wonder what kind of performance issues might occur should a screen become clogged with shavings?

If you have the top off, is there any indication of where the screens might be located? Chris' sent me two screens, but they weren't sure how I should retrofit my machine.

You may need to do some pressure adjustments as my machine (Mini) was running about 8bar upon arrival. It's extremely easy to do.
have you purchased some Urnex Cafiza? I run some through my machine on a monthly basis.
SwingT

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by SwingT »

Thanks for the post, Zoey -

Mine was at 10.5 - so I set it back to 9.0

My water pressure here is pretty high, and I have a whole-house pressure regulator on the main line.

Hopefully, the regulator on the mains will be pretty stable and I won't have to install another one in the line for the machine.

Like you said, easy to do.

At this point, I still don't know what's what inside the machine - so couldn't tell where the screens might be.

Regards
JohnB

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by JohnB »

SwingT wrote:Thanks for the post, Zoey -

Mine was at 10.5 - so I set it back to 9.0

My water pressure here is pretty high, and I have a whole-house pressure regulator on the main line.

Hopefully, the regulator on the mains will be pretty stable and I won't have to install another one in the line for the machine.

Like you said, easy to do.

At this point, I still don't know what's what inside the machine - so couldn't tell where the screens might be.

Regards

What pressure is the w/h regulator set to?
SwingT

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by SwingT »

What pressure is the w/h regulator set to
Have no idea. I don't think it has a gauge and can be readily determined. Been under the house for well over a decade.

Probably not a bad idea to pick up a gauge and see what the pressure is.
JohnB

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by JohnB »

SwingT wrote:
What pressure is the w/h regulator set to
Have no idea. I don't think it has a gauge and can be readily determined. Been under the house for well over a decade.

Probably not a bad idea to pick up a gauge and see what the pressure is.
I'd install a pressure regulator w/guage on the Vivaldi water line. You need to know what pressure you are putting into the machine as too high of a psi can cause leaks. Also you have line pressure pre infusion so the feed pressure to the machine will affect how well your p/i works. Typically CC adjusts the group pressure to 9b with the machine attached to a 30psi line. Since you had to adjust down from 10.5b I'd say your pressure is quite a bit higher then that. I settled on 38psi static pressure which is higher then what CC recommends but it works better for P/I.
SwingT

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by SwingT »

Thanks for that post, John

I'll pick that up.

I see chris has regulator and gauge with John Guest fittings.

Those things sure are easy to use!
JohnB

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by JohnB »

SwingT wrote:Thanks for that post, John

I'll pick that up.

I see chris has regulator and gauge with John Guest fittings.

Those things sure are easy to use!
Thats the one I bought, no problems in over 1.5 years.
SwingT

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by SwingT »

Got the regulator installed.

I also put a T in the line with a valve and a cap in order to be able to easily flush a few gallons when I replace the filter.

I set if for 30 pounds - had to reset the machine to 9 bar.

Putting that on there helped my shots. I pulled one of the pretties pulls yet.

Thanks for pointing in me in that direction!
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slo
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Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by slo »

I have read a lot of posts where people are planning or recommending the installation of a pressure regulator on the intake water line. I will naively ask why? What reason is there?

There should really be no pressure and leak issue anywhere with the machine. I've taken it apart and seen no cause for concern on that front. THe water pressure in my kitchen is running at about 50 psig. I am seeing no issue (yes I had to re-adjust the group pressure a bit). Pre-infusion is now occuring at just above 3 bars which I read is recommended by some.

Why is Chris Coffee recommending 25-30 psi? :-?
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
JohnB

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by JohnB »

CC recommends 30 psi because they have had leakage issues in the past with machines hooked up to a "high" in house water pressure. Not sure how high that was, you'd have to talk to them about that. If you are on a well your line pressure will be going up & down all day in a 20 psi range which will be constantly changing your group & p/i water pressure. I installed the CC regulator w/guage to maintain a fixed pressure at the machine but it also allows me to play with different p/i pressures to see what I prefer. Currently I have it set to provide 38 psi for pre infusion & the pressure drops to 35 psi when the pump kicks in.
SwingT

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by SwingT »

I will note that in the review of the vivaldi II at Home Barista - the reviewer suggested an incoming pressure of 25 and 3 seconds of preinfusion as a starting point.

My incoming pressure fluctuated somewhat - which made my brew pressure fluctuate also.

Adding a regulator smoothed the fluctuation out. It made sense to me that operating at a lower pressure gives a better environment, more control - more consistency - kinda like using a stepless grinder versus a stepped one. The lower the pressure, the smaller the steps of variation.

Since Chris recommended 30 - I ran at that for a while - preinfusion benefits seemed tricky at best.

I went down to 25 with 3 seconds on the preinfusion, there seems to be a noticeable benefit.

I did not do exhaustive testing, I am quite new at this - making various other changes also, so this is not a scientific comment -

however, it's working well for me at this point.
JohnB

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by JohnB »

The idea of the p/i is to thoroughly wet the puck before pressure builds up. At 25 psi for only 3 seconds I doubt its doing much more then wetting the top. Remember if the system isn't "primed" before your shot absolutely nothing will come out the first few seconds of p/i. The lower the line pressure the longer it takes for the water pathway to fill. If you've got some coffee to waste stop the shot at the end of p/i before the pump kicks in & cut into the puck to see how far the p/i water penetrated in 3 seconds at 25 psi. There was quite a bit of testing done by a few of the H-B regulars & they found the p/i most effective around 38 psi.
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Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by michael »

was there also a recomended time for pi 8)
JohnB

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by JohnB »

michael wrote:was there also a recomended time for pi 8)
I don't recall but from my own experiments I think you need to get close to 6 seconds to accomplish anything. Of course it will depend on the size of your dose. I normally don't turn on the p/i for 13-14g doses & I seldom go over 16g.
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slo
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Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by slo »

Mr. JohnB poked my curiosity and I did go to check on the H-B forum and believe that I found what he was refering to:

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-ma ... t1302.html

If you are interested.

In this little experiment the commentators are mentioning 6 seconds with 3 bars to get the puck thoroughly wet. In no way am I criticising the experiment but I believe that, as they stated themself, the results and effects will be very different from machine, basket, home, tampering and operator. Thus to really realise the full potential of preinfusion or to dismiss it as useless, I think that everyone has to experiment for themself.

This is not to say that one cannot use the advice of someone else. Personnally I went with Ian Stewart and Dan Kehn from the H-B review fo our beloved Vivaldi (only had for about month and already don't know how I lived without it)for the preinfusion set of 3 seconds and went with Ken Fox and Jim Schulman from the aforementioned experiment for the pressure at about 3.3 bar (48 psig), which is my water main pressure.

I cannot claim any particular results yet, I have only pulled a dozen of shots with preinfusion, but I think that I can see a better initial colour. On the other hand I think that I am getting blonding much earlier.

So do not take my word for it just yet. But I'll keep you posted.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
JohnB

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by JohnB »

You would blond earlier with p/i if you didn't tighten up the grind from your non p/i setting. As I said before its easy enough to see what 3 seconds of p/i does to the puck, just pop it out & have a look.
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slo
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Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by slo »

Yeah I know... I just didn't take the time to experiment yet. When the shot is built and it starts it is hard to stop it and throw away what could be a good shot... I just couldn't resist today. :grin:

I had guest over for coffee this afternoon and collected the stray grinds (somehow my manipulation, measuring and dosing seem to produce a significant amount of stray) I have enough for a shot I think and will try to pop the puck after the P/I tomorrow.

I'll let you know. Come to think of it, I bought a bag of decaf that I have not figured out a way to make taste good. I'll use that tomorrow for sure...

See, writing about these thing is forcing me to think. You guys are making me sound less stupid (I think?) :-P or maybe it's the coffee. They say that coffee is good for the cognitive capacity. :-P

And I did try to pack a bit more today (probably on the 40 pound range, eyeballing it using my usual espro clik tamper 30 lb) and also I tried a notch finer on the grinder. I think that it is blonding a little later but still below 25 seconds and probably around 1.5 once. The taste is not bad though. Definitly more fruits and brighter (I am using this term to mean that the taste is more distinct crisp). Still trying to learn the lingo :oops: My blend is usually very, very chocolaty, both in aroma and taste, and with P/I the chocolate is much more subdued. That I am not sure that I like.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
JohnB

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by JohnB »

Are you weighing the dose? If so how much are you using? You will find in time that the 30lb tamp isn't really necessary. I tamp pretty light these days & let the grind do the work.
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slo
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Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by slo »

I weigh the dose most of the time these days because I am trying to learn the effect of anythng and everything. I know, I know, I messing around with to many variables at the same time... I love to play... :grin:

I vary the dose between 16 and 18 grams. Most of the time I am around 16.5 grams. With 18 I getting thicker pour but the basket is full and the coffee gets jammed on the group screen. It would require a very hard tamp to get it down.

Now to the main bone if this post! :bom: I couldn't disagree with you more on the tamping issue... Here is a post I wrote on another site that I will use to express my sentiment on tamping:
"As a side note, I used a doser mounted tamper for many years and when I bougth my first hand held tamper, it was a revelation. I will never go back. The quality of the coffee has improved 200%. Same grinder, same machine, same water,... When I hear and read that the single most important thing that one can do to improve the quality of an espresso is a better grinder, I have to disagree. Going from a doser (fixed) mounted tamper to a hand held one has made much, much more of a difference than going to a better grinder (the MD40 from a no name buit-in grinder). But then, this is only my experience and opinion."

I wrote this a little while back, and still believe that it is true for me. I see so much difference in the pour and in the cup related to the tamp that I simply cannot accept that anyone can dismiss the tamp as unnecessary. I know that it is not exactly what you said but others have written it.

Day-in and day out I see a difference in the result based on the tamp I use, without any other variable changed. It was true before Vivaldi and it is still true with Vivaldi.

Please do not get offended by my rant. This is not about what you wrote. It is about what I feel is true.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
JohnB

Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by JohnB »

No offense taken as I certainly wasn't telling anyone to use a doser mounted tamper although this is standard procedure in Italy if they tamp at all. I have a nice collection of tampers so I'm with you there but I don't agree that a 30lb tamp is necessary. Getting the tamp level is much more important then any particular pressure.

As to the grinder being more important that is usually said in relation to the machine not the tamper. i.e. a really good grinder will do much more to improve your espresso then a fancier machine. I've personally gone from a Macap m4 to a Super Jolly to a Major all the while keeping the same tampers & machine. The difference in the cup & in what is required to get a nice tiger striped, centered pour is night and day from the old Macap to the Major.
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slo
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Re: Anything I should do to my new vivaldi II 0r just use it?

Post by slo »

Bizarre! I was plenty happy with my grinder until I read this last post... Now I have grinder envy... ;-)

And by the way As I wrote in the P/I thread. It's ok to tamp lighter with a 53 mm... You know what? I have further reduced my tamp pressure and now, with the P/I set at 5 seconds and an increased 16.5-17 gram dose with 1 notch coarser, get a very different pour. Thick, yet fluid, foamy and fluffy crema and the taste is very round and mellowed compared with the results of last week (16 grams, 30 lbs tamp, 3 second P/I) which were bright and fruity with a quick pour.
Same coffee! I am baffled by the difference!
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
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