No more 20 amp Vivaldi

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slo
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No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by slo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:15 am

Taken from the Chris Coffee website:

"As of August 2017, this machine can only be used in 15 amp mode but will continue to have a 20 amp plug on the machine, so a converter cord will be included with all Vivaldi machines."

Anybody knows why that is?
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and Robur
Backup grinders: MXKR, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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chas
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by chas » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:02 pm

Interesting. I hadn't noticed that before. I see that the Dream still shows 15/20A mode and it should be pretty much the same power drawn as the V2. I wonder if there was really a problem with 20A mode or if they are just trying to add more differentiation from the Dream?

I also wonder how they implemented the change. If they just removed the 15/20A switch from the controller box, with some additional work, it would be possible to remove and open the controller box and add or remove a jumper. My first and very early S1 used a jumper. When they later put the controller board in a plastic box they added a slide on connector for connecting to the two jumper pins. The other end had the switch that bolted into a hole in the box.

On the other hand this machine with both boilers on, the controller board powered on, and the pump motor operating pulled almost exactly 20A at 110V. My house runs more like 122V so it would pull more than 20A. Even with that I never had problems including never tripping the breaker, but it is a marginal way to be operating.

My GS/3 is only a 15A machine and it's boilers combined draw more current than does the S1. However, they have much smarter control of the dual PIDS and seem to pulse the operation rapidly back and forth so you get performance like simultaneous operation without the boilers actually both operating at the same time. They surely didn't do anything like this with the newer V2s. More likely they had enough anecdotal evidence over the years from 15A users that performance in that mode was good enough.

Rather than continue this trail of speculation, I'll drop Chris and email tomorrow and ask.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.23 (US 120V)
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goodboyr
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by goodboyr » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:10 pm

See my note below in a other thread. There are electrical components that are only rated for 15 amps.

viewtopic.php?t=2366

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Bob
La Spaziale Dream and Baratza Sette 270W

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slo
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by slo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:22 pm

goodboyr wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:10 pm
See my note below in a other thread. There are electrical components that are only rated for 15 amps.
I noticed your post and this is what reminded me that I saw earlier on H-B that CC's machine would now only be 15 Amp.

How can you tell that the connectors are only 15 amp rated?

FWIW, it has been on 20 amp, 24/7 since day 1, August 2009 with no issue.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and Robur
Backup grinders: MXKR, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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chas
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by chas » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:32 pm

In the early days the machines imported from Italy did not have an internal fuse. Chris Coffee was adding them before customer shipment. I am not sure if this has changed and, if so, when it did.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.23 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B

goodboyr
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by goodboyr » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:37 pm

I removed the fuse holder to clean the connection. Its marked on the side "2 to 15 amps".

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Bob
La Spaziale Dream and Baratza Sette 270W

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chas
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by chas » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:57 am

I sent an email to Chris yesterday and asked what became of the V2 20A mode. I got an automated reply that he is out of the country for most of January. I assume he is either golfing at some exotic locale, visiting espresso vendors in Italy, or both!

I just resent the question to his tech that mainly supports the LaSpaz machines so we'll see what he has to say.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.23 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B

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slo
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by slo » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:02 pm

Thank you Chas.
I am really curious about this.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and Robur
Backup grinders: MXKR, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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chas
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by chas » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:55 pm

According to Tim Catalfalmo at CCS, the V2 and V2 Mini failed their most recent ETL/NSF certification at 20A but passed at 15A. NSF is a sanitation rating for using in commercial operations so that really couldn't have been the part that failed. There is no sanitary difference in that area between 15A and 20A operation. Similarly, there is no basic electrical difference between 15A mode and 20A mode other than the total current draw. So I suspect that is the issue.

Tim said that he thinks LaSpaziale is working on a fix for future machines. Seems like a difficult software fix. They may have to do something like drop the steam boiler element to 1250W. I don't think they'd want to reduce the size of the group boiler element.

On the other hand, the Dream passed with both boilers having the current heating element sizes so maybe there is something that can be done in software or else it really is something other than total current draw.

Hopefully I can get a more complete answer from Chris when he returns. The techs may be afraid to say too much, but I think Chris will give me the low down.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.23 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B

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slo
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by slo » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:14 am

Thank again Chas.
Hope that the ETL did not find something wrong with the design.
Another point is that although the Dream may have passed the test, it is also now only available in 15 Amp. So it does not seem to be resolved by software.
On the CCS site, only the Dream T is still available in 15 or 20 Amp.
Even more curious now.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and Robur
Backup grinders: MXKR, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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