machine choking

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triathlon61
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machine choking

Post by triathlon61 »

Last week, I was getting very nice espresso, great color, lots of crema, using my own beans (malabar Gold and SO Harrar). I bought some beans from a local roaster. He told me they were not more than 5 days old. Now, using the same technique, I get one of two things, watery coffee with no crema or the machine chokes. This happens using the same settings for the grinder. The only difference seems to be the tamp, but I am unable to get anything between the choking or the watery coffee. Any suggestions?
md
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Post by admin »

Some beans are just harder to deal with. However, what I would try is grinding coarser and tamping harder. If you grind too fine the tamp difference between choking and channeling is extremely slight.
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Niko

Post by Niko »

Chas is extremely right.
You're better off making the grind coarser and playing with your tamp pressure.
The only thing I can add is that the coffee is past its prime but you did mention that it was no more than 5 days old. Is he sure? - and there's no way to prove it anyway.
I've had beans that did the same thing you're describing but in my case it was decaf - can't expect much from that...

What level of roast are these beans in question?
Martin

Post by Martin »

Niko wrote:Chas is extremely right.
You're better off making the grind coarser and playing with your tamp pressure.
The only thing I can add is that the coffee is past its prime but you did mention that it was no more than 5 days old. Is he sure? - and there's no way to prove it anyway.
I've had beans that did the same thing you're describing but in my case it was decaf - can't expect much from that...
What level of roast are these beans in question?
OK, I extremely disagree. :P
Keep your tamp steady. I'm a heavy handed guy, but there's enough dispute out there to favor just about any tamp. But I've never heard anyone recommend varying the tamp. "No more than 5 days old" strikes me as an odd way for a roaster to divulge when the roast took place. Could be just a manner of speaking.

Actually, I'm not sure what's meant by "choke" here. On my way old Isomac Venus, choke meant, nada. zero coming from the pf. On my E61 Tea, a couple of times I could snooze for a while, but eventually I'd get a drip drip. But on LaSpaz? I've squeezed a 45 sec ristretto that was really good. (I hate to resort to a sink shot. If it's really bad I try to drink it just to punish myself. But this was legit good).
More questions: what grinder?
More answers: toss the beans and don't worry about choking until it happens again. Sometimes bad things just go away from nice people.
Martin
Niko

Post by Niko »

Martin wrote:On my E61 Tea, a couple of times I could snooze for a while, but eventually I'd get a drip drip. But on LaSpaz?
Your Isomac Tea slowly built up pressure, that's what's different about the Spaz.
And yes, he will have to vary his temp pressure if he has a stepped grinder with large increments. One of several grinders I have is an Isomac and it's steps are huge.
Martin

Post by Martin »

Niko wrote:
Martin wrote:On my E61 Tea, a couple of times I could snooze for a while, but eventually I'd get a drip drip. But on LaSpaz?
Your Isomac Tea slowly built up pressure, that's what's different about the Spaz.
And yes, he will have to vary his temp pressure if he has a stepped grinder with large increments. One of several grinders I have is an Isomac and it's steps are huge.
Yes, I didn't "interpret"same grinder setting" to mean step grinder. "Md", is this the case. If so, then varying the tamp is one work-around, but still not a good solution.
Niko, Maybe go into some more detail on the mechanics of the build-up v. full pressure. I understand that that's the case, but have no good idea about why.
Thanks
Martin
Niko

Post by Niko »

Martin,
It's called pre-infusion. The pump slowly builds up pressure to soak the puck and then it bursts the pressure to about 10 bars (avg.) or so, depending where it's set.
My Quick Mill E61 does this also.
Martin

Post by Martin »

Niko wrote:Martin,
It's called pre-infusion. The pump slowly builds up pressure to soak the puck and then it bursts the pressure to about 10 bars (avg.) or so, depending where it's set.
My Quick Mill E61 does this also.
Yes, I know that difference. I don't understand how or if this relates to type of choking, or the particular predilection for choking.
Martin
Niko

Post by Niko »

Martin,

What I should've said is that the E61 is more forgiving because of that build of pressure, the S1 is kind of set at 8.2 bar on average and the Quick Mills and Isomacs are at least 10 bar. That's why I have to grind coarser on the Spaz.
I have yet to choke my Quick Mill, that Anita can push a Volkswagen through its portafilter. The Spaz on the other hand, I've chiked it using odd beans and not knowing where's a good starting point. I've got 17 different kinds of beans in my house now - I have to take notes on where to grind each one.

By the way, I love your avatar!
Martin

Post by Martin »

Niko wrote:Martin,

What I should've said is that the E61 is more forgiving because of that build of pressure, the S1 is kind of set at 8.2 bar on average and the Quick Mills and Isomacs are at least 10 bar. That's why I have to grind coarser on the Spaz.
I have yet to choke my Quick Mill, that Anita can push a Volkswagen through its portafilter. The Spaz on the other hand, I've chiked it using odd beans and not knowing where's a good starting point. I've got 17 different kinds of beans in my house now - I have to take notes on where to grind each one.

By the way, I love your avatar!
Thanks, avatar's twin has been browsing on CoffeeGeek for a few years and I cloned her for this pasture.

Now, back to wherever I was. Which is confused. My nearly 2 months experience with the VivII is that it is more forgiving than my Tea. This might have something to do with using the double basket instead of triple and having learned early not to overdose. At any rate, I find that if I err on the side of too coarse, even a 20 sec shot can be very nice. And if it goes 35-40 secs, it's still fine. At that, it only takes one correction to get it on target.

And the machine has never absolutely choked.

I suppose I come close to your number of varieties. Then there's decaf. Then blends. I used to take shot notes, roasting notes, and notes to where my notes were. Then I realized that I rarely looked at the notes and when I did, I didn't believe the fool who wrote them.

Guess I shouldn't worry too much about the problems I don't have.
Martin
Niko

Post by Niko »

For some odd reason, I still manage to choke the Spaz on the extreme (vary) rare occasion.
I use so many different varieties of beans, so I invite challenges and disaster and sometimes my shots are like the saying "when it rains - it pours..."
I find my Quick Mill Anita is a little more forgiving to me than the rest of my machines for some odd reason.
But man, let me tell you...One time I choked El Spazo so bad that not a single drop came out! I didn't even think that was possible and then the 3 dancing lights came on so I hit the button again to stop the pain and the backflush of grinds was huge and nasty with a nice cleanup to follow.
StuBaby

Post by StuBaby »

If it's really bad I try to drink it just to punish myself. But this was legit good).
Too funny...thinks I'll go punish myselft again. brb... :lol:
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