Back Flush

For generic information on making espresso alt.coffee, coffee geek, Sweet Maria's web site and many others excel at this tutorial level of information. However, if you've been there and done that but have specific questions and concerns about getting the best espresso on the S1/VII/Mini-VII/Dream/Dream T, post those topics here.
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ddunn

Back Flush

Post by ddunn »

How often are you back flushing with water? with cleaner?
barjohn

Post by barjohn »

I backflush every day with water. I backflush with cleaner about once a month.
ddunn

Back Flush

Post by ddunn »

How many shots per month do you think you average?
barjohn

Post by barjohn »

Hard to guess but it probably ranges from 60 to 100. I have been doing remodel on my deck so I haven't had company over for a few months. May increase once I restart.
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chas
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Post by chas »

John's recommendations are good. I probably backflush with Cafiza a little more often that he does and backflush with plain water less often. YMMV.

One thing you should make part of the plain water regimen is to do a few standard backflushes and a few where you slowly loosen and tighten the PF (the portafilter wiggle) so that water comes out over the top edge of the PF and rinses away any loose grounds stuck up around the gasket.

I also wipe down the gasket area with the edge of a sponge after every shot.
Last edited by chas on Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chas
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barjohn

Post by barjohn »

I do the PF wiggle every time as Chas reccomends. Otherwise grounds get caught around the edge. I have also noticed that using a sponge works better than a brush to clean the screen and gasket groove.
merge03

what does backwashing actually accomplish?

Post by merge03 »

I'm confused by the need to backwash? The only thing that would seem to accomplish is pushing water up through the pressue release valve?

I do disassemble and clean the screens and brass disc every 4-5 days. which also includes wiping out the group head with a damp cloth. But there are never any grinds beneath the brass disc, so I'm confused as to why any dirty water in the pressure releif path has anything to do with brewing the actual espresso?

Am I missing some huge piece of the puzzle?
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chas
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Post by chas »

I think the optimum thing to do is clean the machine as you are doing BEFORE you backflush, then backflush a couple of times with water and no detergent. That way you pretty much ensure that you are not pushing additional gunk up and out the three way. And if there is any loose material that has gotten up there that would flush it out.

However, even with this procedure espresso is still getting up into the 3-way mechanism and will start to build up eventually. But most of us probably do clean too often with too much detergent. Chris has told me several times to only use 1/4 tsp when I do use detergent i.e. Cafiza. With a good cleaning regimen I bet once every couple of months might be enough.
Chas
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BobG

Post by BobG »

After reading the above, I guess I should adjust my cleaning procedure. If you leave the machine on for most of the day and say make 3 double shots spread throughout the day, then does Chris recommend just backflushing once per day at the end of the day?

Currently, I backflush after each shot, but I just use the wiggle the portafilter technique then backflush (I don't wipe it clean). So, maybe I am blowing additional grounds through the machine with my current technique?

Also, I tend to backflush with detergent every 2 weeks, so maybe I should scale this back.

What does everyone do to clean the brass? I just clean it with a brass wire brush and wash it with soap and water. The screens and portafilter get soaked in a cafiza solution each week...

Thanks,
Bob
richardsimoni

How to backflush

Post by richardsimoni »

Please advise the proper way to backflush. Start at the very begining because I am a new S1 owner.
Best
Richard Simoni
wgaggl

Post by wgaggl »

I have never seen "THE proper way to backflush".
But a few points: LaSpaziale obviously suggests doing mostly water backflush, since the cleaner dries out the rubber in hoses and valves.
Also, due to the double shower screen design there's not a lot of coffee grounds being sucked into the three-way valve.
David Schomer obviously suggests backflush hourly which I think is a little bit much.
However, if I know I won't do another shot for a while, I usually backflush with water, so the old grounds won't bake onto the screens (and disassembling and cleaning the screens is too much of a procedure for me to do it a couple of times a day). And by the end of the session/day I do backflush with water and wiggle the PF.
Once every few days I unassemble the screens and clean them with Cafizia. Only once a month or so I use detergent to backflush.
Wolfgang
richardsimoni

How to backflush?

Post by richardsimoni »

Hi all,
My manual says nothing about backflushing. What I am asking is, how does one backflush an S-1. In other words, what buttons do I push. I am surmising one places the rubber stopper in the porta-filter. Now what? Is this done after the machine has reached brewing temperature, what? Please tell me all.
I have never backflushed an espresso machine, ever!! - - my only experience is with the lever Pavoni.
Thanks,
Richard Simoni
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chas
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Post by chas »

You're in the right place, you just haven't looked around enough. At the very top of this (and every) page on this forum (under the title) is a link called "Go to S1 Website". Use it. Click the "FAQs" button at the top of that page. On the FAQs page read the answer to the question: "How do I Backflush the S1?"

Also, on the home page of the S1 Web Site, about half way down, click on the link "S1 Owner's Manual". Is this the same as what you got with your machine? If not, check out section 7.2. This is the La Spaz preferred cleaning method which actually doesn't include backflushing and will explain what that "barbecue grill cleaning brush" that came with the S1 is all about. That's just as FYI as I don't think any of us really use this method :lol:
Chas
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toby

No need to backflush

Post by toby »

I have had my S1 for about 6 months now and have never backflushed it. I was told by Chris Coffee that backflushing this unit was not needed nor recommended. Since the manual says nothing about backflushing the unit, and CC says it isn't needed, I don't see a reason for doing it. Am I missing something?

Toby
dsherman

Post by dsherman »

Toby -

I believe you're correct. The double screens protect the unit from needing a backflush.

It is recommended that you clean the screens - thus the included extra screens and brush.

- Derek
Mizspresso

BF or not to BF

Post by Mizspresso »

Well, this is interesting.

Seems there are conflicting opinions about this issue. Do you backflush? I originally thought to ask about frequency as the original poster asked, but now I wonder if I should be doing this at all.

I just replaced the group gasket this weekend, so took out the dispersion disk, gave the screens and disk a good cleaning and put the whole thing back together. Then I pulled a truly great shot. OMG, it was ambrosia, so this got me thinking about cleanliness. I clean the screens each weekend with cafiza, but rarely backflush.

So what is current consensus?
RapidCoffee

Re: Back Flush

Post by RapidCoffee »

Mizspresso wrote:So what is current consensus?
Consensus? You want consensus on an espresso site? :-P

I've been taught that every espresso machine with a three-way (solenoid) valve can and should be backflushed. The frequency depends on usage patterns, but the general guideline is daily water backflushes and weekly/monthly detergent backflushes. I don't see how two shower screens makes a substantial difference. Backflushes should not hurt the machine, so at worst it's wasted effort. At best, regular backflushing helps keep coffee gunk (oils and particles) from clogging up the three-way valve.

Wow, talk about reviving an old thread.
JohnB

Re: Back Flush

Post by JohnB »

I didn't think any of the really old threads survived the meltdown. I figured everyone was doing plain water backflushes at the end of the day but I guess not. The dual screen set up does trap most of the grounds that would otherwise get up into the valve. Take a look for yourself after pulling shots for a week. I've tried a detergent backflush after only 2 weeks & got pretty much zilch. Even after as long as 6 weeks not a heck of a lot of gunk comes out.
MDL
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Re: Back Flush

Post by MDL »

The screens do catch coffee grounds, they do not catch oils and other soluble matter that can stick to and clog the 3-way valve and other plumbing. If I look at the water that comes out of my detergent backflushing it is quite brown, presumably from dissolving coffee oils etc?

When I first received the machine I figured that I did not need to detergent backflush because I make only 1 or two doubles a day. After some time I started to feel that the 3-way valve was not opening fully after each shot (it sounded different). Niko suggested that I backflush a few times with Cafiza and indeed that took care of things and got me back.

I think that detergent backflushing is important on a regular basis. Also, don't forget to clean the extra set of screens, your portafilter and baskets in detergent (I use Cafiza) regularly.

I backflush with Cafiza every 2-3 weeks.

Enjoy,
Mark
SwingT

Re: Back Flush

Post by SwingT »

Ever since I initially recieved my S1 V2 - when I backflush, it will only go into over pressure ( not sure what you call it when the lights light up to the right - signaling you to end the flush) using the single portafilter and rubber blind flushing gasket.

Apparently the double portafilter and naked portafilter don't seal well enough to cause the lights to come on -

Sometimes the lights won't come on even with the single basket.

So far I have ignored this, but recently started wondering if I should take corrective action -

My water inlet pressure is at 32 psi - I'm not sure if that affects this.

any suggestions or comments?
JohnB

Re: Back Flush

Post by JohnB »

Do the lights flash if you get a choked shot?
SwingT

Re: Back Flush

Post by SwingT »

It's been so long since I choked a shot, I don't recall.

I can try to choke one tomorrow.
Niko

Re: Back Flush

Post by Niko »

So you're using the little black rubber disc? - This is the problem since I can't get a good back flush with the bottomless PF either.
I switched to a blind basket a few years ago and never looked back. It flushes aggressively in any style of PF.
JohnB

Re: Back Flush

Post by JohnB »

Why would the p/f make any difference when using the rubber disc? The disc seals in the basket.
Niko

Re: Back Flush

Post by Niko »

Not sure but the naked does not have a really good fit with the rubber disc when I used it - this was a few years ago so maybe it was operator error :lol:
I know for a fact that the full metal blind basket works great, the seal is air tight and it really backflushes with authority.
Endo

Re: Back Flush

Post by Endo »

My lights never come on when choked or backflushing on my Mini.

I wrote to both Chris Coffee and La Spaziale. I thought this fault may have been removed from the Mini logic. They said no, but they never solved it either.

I tend to think it has something to do with vibe pump water pulses which cause the flowmeter to signal a small amount of flow even when blocked. The same pulses you see on the brew boiler guage that cause it to vibrate wildly. But that's just a guess.

I would guess none of this would apply to the regular rotary pump S1.
Last edited by Endo on Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JohnB

Re: Back Flush

Post by JohnB »

Niko wrote:Not sure but the naked does not have a really good fit with the rubber disc when I used it - this was a few years ago so maybe it was operator error :lol:
I know for a fact that the full metal blind basket works great, the seal is air tight and it really backflushes with authority.
I agree the metal blind basket worked great & was close to a double in size. I never had problems with the rubber disc in the singles basket but I'm sure there would be sealing issues in a double.
oton

Re: Back Flush

Post by oton »

Endo wrote:My lights never come on when choked or backflushing on my Mini.

I wrote to both Chris Coffee and La Spaziale. I thought this fault may have been removed from the Mini logic. They said no, but they never solved it either.

I tend to think it has something to do with vibe pump water pulses which cause the flowmeter to signal a small amount of flow even when blocked. But that's just a guess.
Same here. I've never seen any chocking alarm lights.
Endo

Re: Back Flush

Post by Endo »

I'm not too worried since this is a rather useless fault indication. I don't need a flashing LED light to tell me there is nothing coming out of the PF. On the other hand, if the flow meter failed, I'm pretty sure the light would come on. I think that is the real intended purpose of this fault and the reason why La Spaziale tells me it's not a problem.
SwingT

Re: Back Flush

Post by SwingT »

Well, it appears from various responses that this is no big deal.

I think that the next time I order something from Chris I'll add a blind basket to the order.
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sakurama
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Re: Back Flush

Post by sakurama »

It could be the dose size setting. If it's small enough to not fill the basket it won't trigger the warning.
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Endo

Re: Back Flush

Post by Endo »

I'm confused. I always thought the blind basket dose was zero? ;-)

If your talking about shot time.....I've left it running for 45 seconds with the blind basket installed and still no lights. :sad11:

I've given up on trying to solve this mystery, but if anyone has a suggestion, I'm all ears.
richardcoffee
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Re: Back Flush

Post by richardcoffee »

I've had my mini since early February - and have never been able to get an alarm. As others here have indicated, even when backflushing with a blind basket - nothing. This morning, suddenly, I dosed as normal in the bottomless portafilter using the triple basket - 20 grams of coffee - not enough to reach the top of the basket. The pump at once sounded different - more muted. I had very little flow - got maybe 1/2 ounce and then the alarm - lights 17, 18 and 19 flashing. I immediately stopped the shot - dumped it and tried a double shot with maybe 12 grams - in other words a light shot. Same performance - then I coarsened up the grind considerably and tried a double again - same thing. I thought maybe the high humidity we're suddenly experiencing was the culprit. The sound was very different though and when I just ran water through the brew head with no portafilter - at first I got just spurting and some steam - very unusual. So, I took out the screens, cleaned everything and then did a backflush routine using Glo-Joe. When done, I drew a shot and all seemed back to normal. In fact, on the second 15 second flush with the detergent, the pump started to sound normal again. I'm not smart enough to know what this is all about but hopefully, the backflushing did the trick.
My normal routine is to clean the screens and block once a week and backflush with detergent at the same time. And, each day after my usual 5 doubles, I backflush with just water. After every shot, I rinse with water and brush the group.
Have any of you experienced anything like this?
Endo

Re: Back Flush

Post by Endo »

It's been my experience that blockage at the group head won't cause the alarm. Blockage in other areas does cause the alarm. I gave up trying to find out why after talking to LaSpaziale and having them stumped as well.

I'm sure the answer is in the water diagram though.

By the way, I've never done a water backflush after 2.5 years (chemical once a month) and everything is running perfect. As I've said before, I'm convinced simple water backflush just sends more bits back through the 3-way. You're better off just swapping screens and dispersion discs frequently. Only chemical backflush does the required dissolving of oils to clean actually it.
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