Shots 2,3,4... better than number 1

For generic information on making espresso alt.coffee, coffee geek, Sweet Maria's web site and many others excel at this tutorial level of information. However, if you've been there and done that but have specific questions and concerns about getting the best espresso on the S1/VII/Mini-VII/Dream/Dream T, post those topics here.
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PatRi

Shots 2,3,4... better than number 1

Post by PatRi »

I just posted on HB but realize this may be a better subject in this forum

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I have my new Spaziale S1 for more than a month now and it has been wonderful. I had great coffee since I have this machine and results are extremely consistent.

One of the constant is that after a few hours rest, shot 2,3,4
HooHaw

Post by HooHaw »

Same here. No matter how I flush shot #1 is often inferior to subsequent shots. I only managed to pull a shot #1 that was equal to the following shots but I CANNOT remember what I did... :cry:
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Post by admin »

I found the ultimate solution. Though it took a while to fully implement this scheme!

1) Get my non-coffee drinking wife hooked on lattes with caramel syrup
2) Give her the first shot since she can't tell the difference through all that milk and syrup. :twisted:
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Tim

Post by Tim »

Yea, my wife likes sweet lattes also so she gets the first shot (that I use to dial the grind in) and I get the next three. Everyone should have a sweet latte lover around to prevent guilty feelings re. sink shots.
PatRi

Post by PatRi »

Well guys there is a definite trend here :lol: ,

My wife take those large size latte in the morning, the large amount of milk covers the offset of the first shot as well, and I have the great shot after :wink: .
Unfortunately she takes only one, the rest of the day I am on my own.

We better not have a spy here to expose us!!!
rgds, Pat
daerider

Post by daerider »

One little trick that works for me is to flush a few onces of water and then I put the rubber backflush disk in and run a couple of backflushes. This seems to stabilize the pump pressure for that first shot. Let me know if this works for you.
glittermom1

Post by glittermom1 »

I have a bit of a variation for that first shot. I get my husband to drink the first shot as a vanilla latte or any handy man that might be around gets an americano from the first shot. Everybody loves me for it. Little do they know....
Sherry
TruthBrew

Post by TruthBrew »

Same thing here, wife loves sweet drinks, so no wasted shots. She even volunteers to take the inferior shots as she knows that she covers the flavor anyway.
HooHaw

Post by HooHaw »

Not exactly a solution folks but it's better than dumping it in the sink.

Daerider, I'll try backflushing when I get back from this trip.
PatRi

Post by PatRi »

WOW :o Must admit that backflushing once makes a great difference on the first shot. Tried it a few times with very good results, it really seems that the key for the first shot is to somehow prepare the pump with some pressure.

This is my first machine where I can backflush, so pardon me for the beginner question. What impact does it have, if twice a day, you do a backflush, any impact on the longevity of the pump or others?.?
t.y. Pat
BillK

Post by BillK »

You know, my philosophy is that if it works, do it and be happy. Acupuncture is over 3000 years old, and I'm not sure anybody still understands why it works, but it does and that's good enough for me.

There are some things, though, that we should be able to figure out. Why it works to backflush the system, then pull the first shot, does not compute with me. I took measurements of pump pressure before the first shot and after the first shot on my machine, and I could see absolutely no difference in the value of the pressure reading or how fast the pressure built up.

I also got out my trusty thermocouple setup and took quite a lot of temperature measurements. What I looked for was a) do you really have to flush-up prior to the first shot (you do) and b) once you flush up what does the temperature look like for the first, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth shots. What I found was that, sometimes, during the first session of the day after having the machine sit idle overnight, (I would flush-up twice and) the temperature of the first shot would be slightly HIGHER than subsequent shots. Sometimes it would not. This implies that after a long, long idle period there can be some initial instability on the S1, but not much - never more than about 1 F Deg, which should not account for a shot that is bad versus good.

The general pattern from the first through the sixth shots was one of temperature stability or a slight rise from the first through the fourth or fifth shots, then stability. I am talking here about a general rise of about 1 F Deg or less.

What I am saying, folks, is that I don't seen anything that I can measure and point to that tells me why the first shot wouldn't be at least OK, assuming that you flush-up by hitting the double shot button twice with an appropriate wait between flushes for the brew boiler to recover to full temperature. But I am not denying what you are seeing, because I go to an acupuncturist.

There is one thing that I don't recall anybody who is experiencing this effect commenting on: If you are experiencing this effect, are you running your machine 24/7 or are you turning it on in the morning, letting it warm up and then experiencing a bad first shot? I did not take any measurements for this type of operation.
hlsheppard

Post by hlsheppard »

I find this thread quite interesting as I run my machine 24/7 and have the exact same "issue" with the first shot(s).

Bill's observations are puzzling because, like him, I've been looking for the logic in all of this (but I don't have his measuring instruments).

I'm wondering if this isn't an issue of having the porta-filter "seasoned" as opposed to a temp/pump variance??

When I was able to play around with a Synesso for a couple of hours at a cafe (VERY fun); the owner always said that it was important that the pf was seasoned properly to get the best shots. When I asked him what that meant, he basically said all they did was a quite wipe of the basket with a DRY(!) rag in between shots. When he saw my raised eyebrows (I am TOTALLY conservative about cleanliness and use boiler water/paper towel between shots), he actually gave me a demonstration and let me taste each shot. No kidding - there was a definite difference! Not only in how the shot pulled, but mainly the taste (that's what it's all about).

He said that the Synesso people told him that and that his own experimentation agreed with what they were recommending. It had something to do with the "carmelized coffee oils" that filled in the surface flaws of the filter basket. Which (supposedly) made for a better seal and improved taste. I can certainly vouch for the taste part of it! Much sweeter shot than a squeaky clean filter basket.

Long story short: are we maybe looking to a mechanical variance as opposed to a much more subtle issue?

Thoughts :?:
BillK

Post by BillK »

"Long story short: are we maybe looking to a mechanical variance as opposed to a much more subtle issue?"

My wife thinks it's based on one's toothpaste brand. :-)
HooHaw

Post by HooHaw »

I turn my S1 off at night. After turning it on in the morning, I sometimes take my first shot within 20 mins and sometimes it'll take me an hour. I dose and tamp with the basket out of the PF. I have 4 double baskets that are placed along with the cups on the S1's warming tray. That makes them warm and dry. Yet my first shot is always disappointing.

Yesterday I tried back flushing then a warming flush and I got a promising first shot Then a couple of hours later I tried warming flush then back flush and that shot was disappointing. This morning I'll try other combinations.
swimmer

Post by swimmer »

Brand new to this site. My S1 and Macap 4 stepless are expected to arrive tomorrow as well as a shipment of Black Cat & Kid-O's. No one in our house drinks syrupy, milky morning drinks so i have nobody to pawn off the inferior 1st shot on. If it's going to be a sink shot anyway, would it be a horrific faux pas to use elderly or non- espresso beans for the 1st shot then switch to the good stuff? Our local Peets was giving away bags of their Anniversary beans in April and i have a few 1/4 lb bags laying around.
TruthBrew

Post by TruthBrew »

Welcome swimmer.

I do exactly that, I take whatever left over grounds I have (or stale ones from the days prior) and just pull a garbage shot in an extra double basket I have. Mind you I only do this when I am not making a milk drink before a shot.

Nice setup, I have the S1, Macap M4 (stepped) and my first two beans were Black Cat and Kid-O. =) You won't be disappointed. I'd say some of those first shots I pulled were some of the best, probably just because of how rich they were when compared to the normal crap you get around here.
swimmer

Post by swimmer »

Thanks. sounds like your learning curve didn't take weeks....even months. i can't tell you how good it is to hear that - gives me hope.

i agree with your comment about some of the stuff they sell locally (SF Bay Area, in my case). i'd rather chase No-Doz with a Coke before drinking most of that garbage.

i feel like a kid on Christmas morning - S1 & grinder should be here today. i just hope my husband doesn't have any probs w/ the plumbing. kind of like getting your favorite toy, but Santa forgets the batteries :)
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