V1 vs V2 Rocket (Steaming) Power

[BillK]

I am one of the lucky few who owns two S1's.

I just returned from V1 land to V2 land, after two months. Since the V2 is new I had not had any extensive period of time to compare the two. Now I do.

The difference in steaming power between the two machines is simply amazing. Even if I do the V1 Niko trick (turning on the steam as the heater is on and pressure is building toward the max. point). I am using the new, small diameter, 4-hole tip the V2. I am using either the same tip on the V1, or sometimes the 3-hole tip. The V2 is just so much stronger and more flexible for texturing foam that it is like a different machine.

Since I didn't notice this until I returned earlier this week to the V2, I haven't studied the problem much. What I do know is that both machines are making steam pressure right up to the edge of the green, bordering on red. This means that, if the gauges are calibrated the same, the max steam pressure is the same on both machines. I cannot believe that this is the case. It seems impossible that they would be. It seems as though the boiler pressure on the V2 must be set higher.

I know that the sensitivity of the temperature sensor is better on the V2 than on the V1. However, as long as I am careful to not use steam when the V1 is at the low point (and I dont; I use the Niko method), and as long as the wattage is the same on both heaters (and I am pretty sure it is) I cannot see how the sensitivity difference can account for the performance difference..

The other mystery to me is that, even if I do not consider the V2, it seems as though the V1 steam power is weaker than it used to be. And yet, the needle on the gauge tells me that all is well, insofar as max pressure is concerned.

I know there was discussion about steam power when the V2 first came out, but I don't remember people commenting on this extreme amount of difference.

Questions:

1. For properly working V1 and V2 machines, is there actually the extreme amount of difference I am experiencing, or should I be looking into V1 steaming problems when I return to the V1?

2. If the V1 is properly working, and this is just the way it is (and I really don't remember the V1 steam being this weak), can I fit the V2 change(s) onto the V1 w/o problems?

Cheers,
BillK

P.S. I did add the V1 pre-infusion chamber a couple of months ago, so I now have the programmed pre-infusion on the V2 and the chamber on the V1. I like the chamber better. I have no idea why.

[JohnB]

Have you ever descaled the V1 steam boiler & given the valve/ect a good cleaning?

[BillK]

Yes. About once a year the steam boiler starts knocking, indicating scale. I de-scale as soon as I notice this. I just did this in October. At the time I de-scaled, I opened the steam valve and blew through the wand to check for obstructions. There was absolutely no resistance. This is a backflow, obviously, but it isn't likely that there is a one way restriction - it's possible, though, and I will have to investigate this further when I get back.

[BillK]

I measured the steaming performance of my V1 and compared it to the original H-B timing.

I used the large, 3-hole tip.

I took 12 oz of water in a metal steam pitcher from 40 def F to 160 deg F.

My time was 70 seconds.

The comparable H-B time was about 40 seconds.

I have a problem.

My gauge reads 1.35 bar when the heater turns off, so I am starting out with a full head of steam.

What are the variables?

Quantity of steam. Heating element output.

Steam pressure seems to drop off real fast, agitation is not great almost right away.

Could it be that my autofill is allowing too much water into the boiler and cutting down on steam volume?

I can easily measure how much water is in the boiler by allowing it to fill, shutting off the machine and letting it cool, removing the pressure relief valve, then dipping a stick and getting a reading on the level. However, I don't have a reference value.

Can anybody tell me how many oz of water should be in the steam boiler, or how many inches?

BillK

[Endo]

Delete

[chas]

Bill:

Once recently I had a situation that sounds very much like you describe. It turned out that between pulling the shot and steaming the milk, I'd accidentally pushed the Boiler button so that the Boiler element was Off and didn't cycle on almost immediately when I opened the steam wand. So in your case the heater element may not be cycling back on soon enough. To me this points more to an issue with the temperature sensor than with the water level sensor.

If you look at a photo of the side of the boiler on the VI Site, you will see where the steam is taken from the boiler on the right side and where the cold water in and hot water out are on the left side. The boiler doesn't need to overfill much before you'd get water rather than steam coming out of the steam wand nor underfill much before you don't get much hot water.

[JohnB]

We need to be careful when we say V1. I have a V1 (Mini) that was built in September 2008 and came directly from LaSpaziale (I bought it locally in Canada). I'm sure the steam power is on par with any V2. It can blow the milk almost onto the ceiling if your not careful. (In fact, I needed to get the smaller holed tip just to control the power). It seems to have the same power as any Vivaldi V2 steaming video I have seen on-line.

Read his first post & its clear he is talking about S1 machines.

[JohnB]

Yes. About once a year the steam boiler starts knocking, indicating scale. I de-scale as soon as I notice this. I just did this in October. At the time I de-scaled, I opened the steam valve and blew through the wand to check for obstructions. There was absolutely no resistance. This is a backflow, obviously, but it isn't likely that there is a one way restriction - it's possible, though, and I will have to investigate this further when I get back.

I was thinking more of scale or a chip partially blocking the steam in the valve, not the wand. I'd consider disassembling the valve & giving it a thorough cleaning.

I was told by one of the techs at CC that scale will build up in the elbows where the water/steam lines attach to the boilers. If you just did an acid descale as opposed to a full break down of the boiler I'd consider taking a look inside this fittings.

[chas]

We need to be careful when we say V1. I have a V1 (Mini) that was built in September 2008 and came directly from LaSpaziale (I bought it locally in Canada). I'm sure the steam power is on par with any V2. It can blow the milk almost onto the ceiling if your not careful. (In fact, I needed to get the smaller holed tip just to control the power). It seems to have the same power as any Vivaldi V2 steaming video I have seen on-line.

Read his first post & its clear he is talking about S1 machines.

On a related note. my assumption for posts is that if someone is talking about a Mini they'll state that fact. If the word MIni is not mentioned, I assume we're not talking about a Mini.

[BillK]

Yes. About once a year the steam boiler starts knocking, indicating scale. I de-scale as soon as I notice this. I just did this in October. At the time I de-scaled, I opened the steam valve and blew through the wand to check for obstructions. There was absolutely no resistance. This is a backflow, obviously, but it isn't likely that there is a one way restriction - it's possible, though, and I will have to investigate this further when I get back.

I was thinking more of scale or a chip partially blocking the steam in the valve, not the wand. I'd consider disassembling the valve & giving it a thorough cleaning.

I was told by one of the techs at CC that scale will build up in the elbows where the water/steam lines attach to the boilers. If you just did an acid descale as opposed to a full break down of the boiler I'd consider taking a look inside this fittings.

John B, you got it. It was a partial blockage of the steam line, in the elbow that leaves the boiler. It was some grayish colored gunk. More of a sludge than a hard deposit. Very mysterious, since this machine is supplied with nothing but filter and softened water. Once I saw this, I drained the boiler, but nothing came out.

Thanks, everybody!!

This machine is once again a rocket steamer. Funny how the boiling frog works. Until I spent time with my V2 I didn't realize that my V1 had slowed down. It had. A lot.

BillK

[JohnB]

John B, you got it. It was a partial blockage of the steam line, in the elbow that leaves the boiler. It was some grayish colored gunk. More of a sludge than a hard deposit. Very mysterious, since this machine is supplied with nothing but filter and softened water. Once I saw this, I drained the boiler, but nothing came out.
BillK

Glad it was that easy to fix! This is why I prefer disassembling the boiler on the bench over just pouring in an acid solution & flushing. It gives you a chance to examine all the fittings & when you are done you KNOW you got everything out.