Vivaldi, or wait for Alex Duetto

[unbdm]

I'm a complete new comer. I've owned a Nespresso for several years that my wife and I never quit enjoyed the product from as much as we do our local shop. The Nespresso broke, and I've been shopping.

From my initial $1000 price point, I've spend many hours reading and I've come a long way and had about settled on the LaSpaziale and a nice grinder. However, I caught wind of the new DB machine.

Aside from the hype of a new machine, does anyone know of a good reason to wait for a duetto instead of getting a Laspaziale now? Mary at Chris' coffee said likely September for the Duetto. The review I read of the Duetto is: http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/IzzoA ... lookv4.pdf
and seems to suggest it has taken the current products on the market into consdieration.

Given I'm already at 2.5x my initial budget, I really don't want to be disapointed... I realize I'm asking this on a Laspaziale forum!

Also, can anyone link a site showing typical plumbing? I'm trying to decide if I should get a mini or not (If I get a Laspaziale), and need a better feel for what is involved in the plumbing installation.

Thanks!

[MDL]

To me a large part of this is how much of a pioneer you are. I would not want to buy the first run of anything and therefore would buy a Vivaldi (although the Vivaldi is apparently going to have some upgrades later this year as well). I have had my VII since April '07 and love it. Plumbed in and rotary pump are fantastic plus the dual boiler makes it easy to supply drinks to a group as needed.

Plumbing is very easy with the John Guest fittings but the real challenge is your particular situation. It was trivial for me to put the water softener under the sink and to run the tube under the dishwasher and then along the front edge of my kitchen cabinets to the end. I then have the braided hose running up the end of the cabinets to the VII on the counter. In this way I do have the braided hose showing but I also avoided having to drill a hole in the granite counter top.

Good luck,
Mark

[jmcphail]

Looks like a great machine from its features. Something that helped me get into the VII was that there were enough existing owners for me to feel comfortable with its reliability.

I wonder if when its released if there will be downward price pressure on all DB machines, including the VII, that would make waiting worthwhile?

Will an E61 DB machine behave the same, where you flush *up* to temp?

[goldscalpel]

Hello,
I think that most of us who love the La Spaziale have worked hard to improve our technique to maximize the quality of espresso. I am sure some machines may be easier to achieve some quality level but I guess it all depends on your expectations. The espresso machine is only one variable to achieve the best shot.

I love my Mini and hate to leave town because I can't find any place to have quality espresso at coffee shops. My wife wants to learn how to use it but I know that she will never get any where near my skill level. It takes patience and practice.

I am so much the better today thanks to everyone on this forum and I can't thank you guys enough. I bought the Mini because I just knew that it would make consistent and great shots. If I were you, I wouldn't hesitate to buy now. Why wait and be miserable drinking tasteless espresso and foamless milk. My grass is soooo green I don't want anything else.

Nana

[JohnB]

If I remember the thread correctly the Alex will be in the $2600 range?? Compare that to the Mini at $1900 & the S1V2 at $2100 both now with pre infusion. What does the Alex give you besides the SMB that you can't get from the Vivaldi for less money? Will it have programmable shot duration, programmable offset that doesn't need to be factored in every time you pull a shot?

[unbdm]

John, I don't know, I was really hoping for input from people that have actualy used the Vivaldi and read the review on the duetto to see if they thought there was anything big. I've only used a Nespresso super-auto... So I'm making a leap of faith purchase, whatever I buy. I wish there was a local store that caried these things.

However... after talking to my wife, unless there is some big significant benefit we're just going to buy now. So unless somebody know of a real reason worth waiting for the duetto, I'm ordering a mini or VII next week.

My problem now is I'm not sure how to get a water line to the Vivaldi. I really don't want to drill through the counter top, if for no other reason than I don't know how to plug it when we move, or if we decide to move the machine. There is not room adjacent to the fridge, it's only a 23" cabinet. The space I want to use is about 3 cabinet sections from the sink, and adjacent to the stove (I wonder if I could snake a hose between the stove and the cabinet).

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Are there any off the shelf fittings to make a hole through the counter top cleaner, or any ideas on how to plug it if I ever don't need the water line anymore?

Thanks,
Barry

[jmcphail]

I've seen photos of a line that came up through the wall above the backsplash. If your backsplash isn't too tall that might work.

[unbdm]

Thanks for the thought, the backspash goes up all the way to the overhead cabinets though.

I've been looking at it, I think I can get it to come out of the last cabinet behind the stove, and the use flex hose.

This will be a fairl long run through multiple cabinets, I'm a bit hesitant about it, but think it will be worth it.

I just checked out my circuits, there is only a few counter plugs on the GFCI in the kitchen, so I don't think I'll need to drop a new circuit...

I'm thinking VII at this point.

Thanks,

[MDL]

I don't think you will have any problems with the length of plumbing. Use 3/8" John Guest tube (not 1/4"). My plumbing goes under the dishwasher and then along two cabinets to reach the end of the counter. The total length is on the order of 15 feet, or a bit more.

I have never used the mini, but I can tell you that the rotary pump and never having to worry about a tank is great.

Good luck,
Mark

[unbdm]

Thanks Mark, My run will be about the same length as yours, but I'll have to make a 90 degree turn, and go through the end cabinet since I have to get to the back of the oven to come out (there is a very small gap between oven and cabinet, but I scooted it about 1/2 in. off the back wall, which is where I'll have to exit.

Did you just go along the front of the cabinets underneath the overhang, or did you go through the cabinets?

Are there any special fittings you used to secure the plumbing run under the cabinets?

For the tubing you used, would you be concerned about it being in your cabinet with pots and pans (I have to to the back of that last cabinet, and that is our pot and pan cabinet, which tends to be a pit of a pile up cabinet).

We're on a whole house water softener, but I'm guessing I'll still run the filter. I hope CC can set me up with what I need.

Thanks,
Barry

[JohnB]

You can get what you need through CC or source it yourself. I ran my flex water line along the upper rear of my cabinets under the counter & held the line in place with metal clamps placed every few feet. If you have a softener system just add a carbon filter in line before the machine.

[unbdm]

Thanks for the info John, I've about convinced myself this will be a piece of cake. I can't wait to order on Monday... My neighbor had a RO system installed, and had a similar water run.

My next search / thread will be what to do when I get the thing... I've never made an espresso shot except in my Nespresso machine (pod)...
I just read through the manual, it's a start.

Thanks,
Barry

[JohnB]

Which grinder are you ordering? Lots of good info for newbies on Home Barista & you will get good answers to any "how to" questions right here. Except for 10 days with a Vetrano the V2 was my first Espresso machine. There may be a few frustrating weeks but you will pick things up quickly & be making great Espresso before you know it. Stock up on a good freshly roasted Espresso blend as you will go through it fast during the learning phase.

[PBL]

Running a water line is not that bad. Almost all cupboards have a cavity either near the floor, behind the drawers or under the lip. The Vivaldi flex line is fairly long, some 42 inches or so. That would get you around or behind any appliance, just like running the line for the dishwater. Once under the sink I would recommend a proper t connection or in line connection on the cold water to the sink and then a quarter turn line valve. That is how I putr mine in. Check some of the pictures on the site, there are lots of them.

Here is an old one I posted after I installed mine in January.

[unbdm]

PBL, thanks for the photo and advice, good stuff. you mentioned photos on a site, you don't have a link do you?

John, I'm looking at the Macap M4 / MC4, and the Mini Mazzer; this is mostly just based on reading posts... I don't know anything about grinders either... I had a freind tell me to go dozerless, and Mary at CC said to go stepless... what do you think?

Thanks,
Barry

[Weska]

I'll chime in that stepless is much to be preferred. (Only confirming what you've no doubt read elsewhere.)

The only caveat is that, if you use one grinder for a variety of coffee techniques that require different coarseness and fineness, it could be a nuisance to adjust between them by lengthily twiddling a knob on the Macap or La Cimbali. Mazzers are said to be quick to change around but are also sometimes faulted for the amount of strength and dexterity that they demand for accurate gross changes.

If it's for espresso only, or with rare exceptions, there is not much reason to go with steps. (If varying grinds will be a fact of life, there are sometimes modifications--to Macap, for example--that can be made to allow swifter changes.)

Doser or doserless is a conundrum. We'll get the unified field theory worked out long before we'll settle that.

[unbdm]

Weska, thanks for shedding light on functional use of grinders. I appriciate your reference to the unified field theory... I now understand the dozer issue better!

Best Regards,
Barry

[JohnB]

John, I'm looking at the Macap M4 / MC4, and the Mini Mazzer; this is mostly just based on reading posts... I don't know anything about grinders either... I had a freind tell me to go dozerless, and Mary at CC said to go stepless... what do you think?
Thanks,
Barry

I'm very happy with my Stepless M4 w/dozer & would recommend it highly. While I always grind per shot I like the fact that the doser does an excellent job of breaking up any clumps before they drop into your p/f. I can just dose, smooth out the top & tamp. No stirring technique required to get rid of clumps. Once you remove the 2 finger guards from the M4 & do the mod I posted on Coffeegeek to the worm drive you will love the stepless M4. No really good espresso grinder is going to do a good job on a coarse press grind so plan on using something else for press/Finum filter/Toddy grinding. I use either my Zassenhaus Knee Mill or KA Pro for coarse grinding.

Definitely get yourself a bottomless portafilter when you order your grinder/S1 package. This will make the learning process much easier as you can see the issues that you read about & you will know when you have corrected them. My stock pfs stay in a drawer unless I'm backflushing as I like to watch the cone form & its much easier to detect the first signs of blonding with the b/p/f.

As far as a good tamper my favorite is the Coffeelab http://www.coffeelabdesign.com/ Since I received mine my Thor & Bumper tampers have become static displays. It looks like CC has one or two colors in stock but it only takes ten days to get here from the factory if you want a different color. More info on tampers here:
http://www.s1cafe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=487

[unbdm]

Thanks for the great advice. I will put the bottomless pf on the list. I'll search for your M4 mods on coffeegeek later as well, thanks for the tip on that. I'll go on ahead and get the tamper you recomended, I was going to just let Mary make the call on that, but that sounds like a nice choice after reading a few comments about it.

It looks like CC only has the black M4, but they don't show a photo of it... if i decided I want the chrome, can you recomend another vendor?

Other than the VII, M4, plumbing kit, tamper, bottomless pf, and a container for steaming milk, can you think of anything else I'll wish i had that first afternoon, or first week playing with this thing?

Also, we're on a whole house water softenter, is there a problem with that? I know the salt which is used to backflush the resin can leave a risidual in the water, although I've never tasted it, and I drink tap water a lot. I'm not planning to install a dedicated softener for the VII since I have the whole house softener.

Thanks again,
Barry

[JohnB]

Looks like the chrome stepless is due in this month at CC so it might not be much of a wait. You might consider one of these when you place your order: http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... amperstand It makes tamping much easier.

As I mentioned above add a carbon filter to your water feed line to clean up your softened water.
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... ltersystem

A small digital scale for weighing out your bean dosages before grinding should be considered. These can be had for $10-$20 at some Ebay stores.
http://cgi.ebay.com/LUXE-600-DIGITAL-MI ... m153.l1262


Lastly remember you are buying a "package" from CC & should be getting a decent discount on the big items. A little friendly bargaining can save some $$$.

[jmcphail]

A few pounds of coffee you're willing to sacrifice to learning the grind, brew volume and shot time interaction will be useful, and a shot timer. I think I went through 2-1/2 pounds learning the variables with my setup.

Other than the VII, M4, plumbing kit, tamper, bottomless pf, and a container for steaming milk, can you think of anything else I'll wish i had that first afternoon, or first week playing with this thing?

[unbdm]

thanks for the ideas and links! Tomorrow is order day... I don't think I can wait on the grinder though... might as well wait on the whole thing if I'm waiting on the grinder...

Thanks again,
Barry

[JohnB]

While I'm sure Mary will suggest it be sure to get an adjustable inline pressure regulator w/gauge from CC as its required to function along with the new programmable pre infusion. As far as waiting on the chrome grinder goes I guess it depends how badly you want chrome & when its due in. Since I believe they are still waiting for the shipment of upgraded boards to arrive your order may be held up anyways.

[unbdm]

John, thanks for continued solid advice... in line regulator is on the list.

Best Regards,
Barry

[JP]

Compare that to the Mini at $1900 & the S1V2 at $2100 both now with pre infusion.

What? How do I get that?

[Niko]

Pre-infusion will be available for everyone soon.
Keep an eye on the forums and there will be a report soon. Chris' Coffee will be performing the upgrade for the control panel on the VII's. The Mini and the old S1's will get a mechanical upgrade.