Yet Another New DB Coming!!

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JohnB

Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by JohnB »

New SMB DBs are popping up monthly. Looks like CC will soon be offering a competitor to the new Vibiemme DB.

http://www.home-barista.com/forums/rumo ... t4982.html

Those SMBs most be expensive as both machines are pricey for the features that they offer.
Niko

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Niko »

I followed that thread for while.
They're priced pretty high though...
JohnB

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by JohnB »

Niko wrote:I followed that thread for while.
They're priced pretty high though...
Thats my point, outside of the PID neither machine offers much compared to the V2 & the Vibi PID doesn't offer any finer temp control then the S1. Hard to figure why there is so much excitement over these machines.
coffeeowl

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by coffeeowl »

Because the market is really thirsty for the dual boiler liquid.
Apart from the GS/3 that was like a mirage on the desert, what was around?
JohnB

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by JohnB »

Well, both the Dalla Corte Mini & Super Mini look like very nice machines but nobody was all that excited about their release. Unless I'm missing something the Super Mini seems almost comparable to the GS3 & is much cheaper. It seems that we only see the "new DB excitement" if a machine has a SMB & an E61 grouphead. Look how many preordered the new VIBI DB & that machine needs lots more R&D work & much better build quality before I would consider it even a decent DB. Looks like the Vibi will be up to $2300 when the next shipment arrives & for what? A very basic & poorly designed machine thats selling like hotcakes. Slap a basic 1*C PID on a shiny box DB w/an E61 g/h & its sales gold. Who cares if the boiler sizes are reversed, brew boiler element is too small, steaming sucks, the drip tray is a deadly piece of crap, you can't touch the outside of the machine without burning your hand & the price goes up weekly.
BillK

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by BillK »

Maybe a 58mm design has the potential for making better coffee. What do you think?

A while back, I talked to a person who posts on the message boards. He has both a LM Linea and an S1. He likes the shots from his Linea a little better. I don't think he would assert that it is due to the portafilter geometry, just that the LM is a little better.

I get shots of Paradise Classico at Black Sheep Coffee in St Paul. The owner finished 4th in the U.S. Barista championships last year; these people are trained and know what they are doing. They have a Synesso (which, I believe, uses a 58 mm portafilter). The shots are explosively good. I buy a bag of coffee from them to compare, use it the same day on my S1, and it is just not as flavorful. I will hasten to add that they have a huge conical grinder and I have a SJ, and there is undoubtedly a noticable difference in shots done from a commercial conical grinder and mine.

Nevertheless, these experiences do raise little questions in my mind about the ultimate shot that is achievable between a 53 vs 58 portafilter geometry. There must be a difference. Can one be judged by a panel of expert tasters to be better than the other? I do not know.

My experience is anecdotal, not science. Is there anybody here who has done any kind of side-by-side tasting of a high quality 58 mm machine vs our machine? Or even your anecdotal stories, like mine, of your experiences and/or experiences of acquaintances. I would love to hear your stories on this topic!! BTW, what did the guy who had the Spaziale and replaced it with the new single group LM decide about ultimate espresso quality between the two? I forgot his name, but he seemed like he would be a good source for comparison...

Just so you don't get the wrong impression, I have to tell you that my S1 is my espresso third machine and I have enough experience with espresso machines and their problems to appreciate the fact that the S1 is completely reliable and wonderful in terms of its build quality, convenience, and feel. I have had my S1 for just about two years and have had virtually no problems!! Ultimate coffee taste is an important factor to me, but is not the end-all. I put it on a balance scale along with cost, build quality, reliability, ease of use, technical support, and feel. The S1 scores so high on these factors that I would buy another one, even if I knew that there was a machine that would make slightly better coffee but had average attributes otherwise.

This is a timely topic with me, because I am in the market for another machine. We live in two places and are tired of carting the S1 back and forth. I am on a path to buy an SII (I will pay a fair price for a problem-free used S1 or SII, incidentally). Getting into the market has caused me to go back and re-visit my entire decision process and experience with the S1 (and I still will consider other machines, so these new DB machine entries would interest me if they were good). For a while I thought that I would give the water dance routine another try and get a Vetrano or somesuch. But then I read and read on the Home Barista board, and was reminded of all the intricacies regarding what you do for machine initial state #1, machine initial state #2, etc, and my eyes glazed. I ain't going back to this, folks, unless it has a six liter boiler, and a six liter boiler won't fit under my cabinets as far as I can tell and even then I am not sure what I would be gaining. The fact of the matter is that I have been permanently spoiled - walk up to a cold S1, run some water through it to warm the group up, and go. The buttons feel great. I like the sound of the solenoid click. The pump hums happily and sounds just the same as it did when new. I have even grown the little hum of the fan that comes on when the steam boiler heats. The steam valve snaps off smoothly with a simple spin. It has less chrome than the grill of a 1958 Buick, and that is a good thing. And the shots are amazingly consistent and good. It is not easy to imagine a better thought-out and executed machine for a home user like me.

OK, OK, I hate the location of the pressure gauge.
JohnB

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by JohnB »

The fact that you are saying that the shots from $7000+ machines are a "little" better then from your S1 says a lot for the $2000 Vivaldi. There are many E61 equipped machines w/58mm pfs out there selling from $1000-$3500 & I haven't heard anyone say the shots from those machines equal the LM Linea, GS3 or Synesso. There is much more to those high end machines then just a 58mm p/f.
Niko

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Niko »

James Hoffman, #1 Barista in the whole wide world, has an S1 at home.
He also has a GS3 that was given to him, I've exchanged posts with him on a few occasions - he likes the S1 enough to ask me where I got my Scace Device, he PM'd me about it.
I've contacted Greg Scace about the newer Scace II Device so I'm on a waiting list for it when he gets around to making those, I believe James Hoffman is on that list as well (according to Greg's last PM) from what I remember.
Greg Scace also owns a Spaz, he had a few gripes about the machine but I don't remember if the 53mm PF was one of them.
The only complaints I've heard about the 53mm PF was on this Forum from a few people.
Richard

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Richard »

BillK wrote:Maybe a 58mm design has the potential for making better coffee. What do you think?

A while back, I talked to a person who posts on the message boards. He has both a LM Linea and an S1. He likes the shots from his Linea a little better. I don't think he would assert that it is due to the portafilter geometry, just that the LM is a little better.
I know of one individual who fits that description; he has been known to recently write extremely positively of the Dalla Corte machines which also use a 53mm (or is it 54mm?) basket diameter.

So what do I think? Bunk.
BillK wrote:. . . they have a huge conical grinder and I have a SJ, and there is undoubtedly a noticable difference in shots done from a commercial conical grinder and mine.
The best money I have ever spent on espresso equipment has been a Mahlkoenig K30 Vario grinder, presently costing more than the Vivaldi. The improvement in the espresso in the cup has been enormous, directly comparing with both a Cimbali Jr. and a Mazzer Mini-E and continuing to use the same espresso machines as earlier.

So since "a huge conical grinder" is in play against an SJ, there's really no point in continuing any comparisons. Different grinder, different coffee in the cup.
Niko

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Niko »

I believe it.
I can't speak for the conicals and all the big-boy grinders out there, since I haven't owned one but I certainly believe my eyes when I read post after post about this very subject. The grinder makes all the difference is an understatement.
One of these days, when my current woes are over, I plan on a nice grinder upgrade :P

Back to original post, I think it's great that there's going to be more dual boiler machines - this is especially good for us consumers not only for more choices, it improves the machines as well with more competition. Chris is always on top of this regardless, even with no other DB machines out there, he still improved things.
BillK

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by BillK »

Niko wrote:James Hoffman, #1 Barista in the whole wide world, has an S1 at home.
He also has a GS3 that was given to him, I've exchanged posts with him on a few occasions - he likes the S1 enough to ask me where I got my Scace Device, he PM'd me about it.
I've contacted Greg Scace about the newer Scace II Device so I'm on a waiting list for it when he gets around to making those, I believe James Hoffman is on that list as well (according to Greg's last PM) from what I remember.
Greg Scace also owns a Spaz, he had a few gripes about the machine but I don't remember if the 53mm PF was one of them.
The only complaints I've heard about the 53mm PF was on this Forum from a few people.

Niko, I did not mean to imply that he or any high profile enthusiast has been critical of 53 mm, because I don't know that they have. I have not ever read anything by him that was critical of the 53 mm portafilter, or even the S1 in general. He was very complimentary of the machine when I contacted him, just thought that the LM made coffee that he preferred. To the best of my recollection, the attitude the more analytical types, going back to the early days of the S1, has actually been to question the original Ernesto Illy work that showed that the 58 mm diameter is optimum. But nobody seems to have ever had enough interest in the smaller diameter to do a side by side test. The only formal analysis I have ever read that would give a comparative indication of espresso quality was the review by Dan Kehn, who liked the coffee but did not give it his highest score and never really provided much of a detailed explanation. And I have never read anything by Dan since that clarifies why he reviewed the espresso quality like he did (but I don't spend a lot of time on the coffee boards these days, so I may have missed something he wrote).
Niko

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Niko »

No, you didn't imply anything negative at all about the S1 - otherwise you wouldn't be considering a VII for a second machine, right? :wink:
BillK

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by BillK »

Niko wrote:No, you didn't imply anything negative at all about the S1 - otherwise you wouldn't be considering a VII for a second machine, right? :wink:
Or a nice, used S1 (hint, hint)...

Actually, I should just step up to the SII and get it over with.
Niko

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Niko »

You should step up to the VII.
It's a small step but every little step counts and makes a HUGE difference. You'll notice the temp settings are much easier to perform on the fly adjustments. Another big factor for me was the steaming, it didn't seem like much in the beginning but after steaming with the VII, I notice the power difference when I go back to the S1.
JohnB

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by JohnB »

Once you read about the upgrades coming very soon you will definitely want to get either a new or used S1V2 as you can not add the truly trick upgrade to an S1V1.
Last edited by JohnB on Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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chas
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Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by chas »

I need to get formal clarification from Chris on this, but I think the solution for the Mini will also work on the S1. It may not be as slick as the option for the V2 but at least it will get S1 users part of the way to nirvana.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
JohnB

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by JohnB »

chas wrote:I need to get formal clarification from Chris on this, but I think the solution for the Mini will also work on the S1. It may not be as slick as the option for the V2 but at least it will get S1 users part of the way to nirvana.
You are correct & I have edited my post to reflect that after rereading Chris's email.
Richard

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Richard »

JohnB wrote:Once you read about the upgrades coming very soon . . ..
Care to say more about what's coming down the pike?
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chas
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Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by chas »

I just got the latest skinny from Chris and his blessing to lay it all out. This evening I'll write in all up and start a new thread or perhaps even a whole new forum topic area just for this since it will no doubt be a very large topic of future conversation.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
BillK

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by BillK »

chas wrote:I need to get formal clarification from Chris on this, but I think the solution for the Mini will also work on the S1. It may not be as slick as the option for the V2 but at least it will get S1 users part of the way to nirvana.
Chas, what problem are you referring to?
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chas
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Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by chas »

It's really a feature upgrade more so than a problem fix.
Chas
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michael
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Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by michael »

so what is it; can it be used on a VII 8)
Niko

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Niko »

Of course it can, the VII is the machine it's modeled for.
I saw the part about the S1 - I just might do it to both of my units :P
BillK

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by BillK »

What is the feature upgrade that I can add to my S1?
Niko

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Niko »

BillK wrote:What is the feature upgrade that I can add to my S1?
phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=825

Pre-infusion baby :P
markwriter

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by markwriter »

JohnB wrote:New SMB DBs are popping up monthly. Looks like CC will soon be offering a competitor to the new Vibiemme DB.

http://www.home-barista.com/forums/rumo ... t4982.html

Those SMBs most be expensive as both machines are pricey for the features that they offer.
What does SMB mean? For some reason I can't figure that one out.

Thanks for the clarification,

Mark
JohnB

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by JohnB »

[quote="markwriter"
What does SMB mean? For some reason I can't figure that one out.
Thanks for the clarification,
Mark[/quote]

SMB = Shiny Metal Box
Weska

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Weska »

You had me mulling over what SMB could mean too, JohnB.

It's a good one. Probably should go into the Canon of Coffee Forum Abbreviations.
BillK

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by BillK »

Niko wrote:You should step up to the VII.
It's a small step but every little step counts and makes a HUGE difference. You'll notice the temp settings are much easier to perform on the fly adjustments. Another big factor for me was the steaming, it didn't seem like much in the beginning but after steaming with the VII, I notice the power difference when I go back to the S1.
Today I ordered a new VII. Now I'll have a VI and a VII. Move over, Niko.
Niko

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Niko »

...Ummm
There's 3 Vivaldi's in my family :roll:
BillK

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by BillK »

Niko wrote:...Ummm
There's 3 Vivaldi's in my family :roll:
What?

There are only two machines listed at the bottom of your note.
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chas
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Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by chas »

Must either be the "etc." or his wife's name!
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
Niko

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Niko »

It's the Etc.. 8)
I shall post a pic tomorrow evening to show you.

Funny you mention the wife's name, by coincidence begins with the letter "V" also :wink:
Maybe it's not coincidence after all :lol:
BillK

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by BillK »

Niko, now that I will have the new model, I know I am going to notice that my original machine undergoes relatively large steam pressure variations due to the way the boiler heater cycles, and this small annoyance will become more noticable. Was it you who mentioned a year or so ago that there is a workaround that reduces the size of the steam boiler pressure fluctuations?
Niko

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by Niko »

Yes.
The trick with the 'ol S1 is to purge some steam out until the heat element kicks on. Keep an eye on the manometer and start steaming immediately when the needle hits 1.1 BAR, this will keep the heater running for the entire steaming process. The S1 is prone to run out of gas towards the end of the steaming cycle, if you swap out the sensor with the newer style VII version - it will help but I still do the trick to keep the element on.
BillK

Re: Yet Another New DB Coming!!

Post by BillK »

Thanks, Niko!
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