power/voltage question

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bll230

power/voltage question

Post by bll230 »

I have been using my Solis machine to learn about esspresso while studying esspresso machines in general. After a recent trip to Italy during which I noticed that about 90% of cafe and restaurant machines were either Faema or La Spaziale, I have decided to get a Vivaldi.

What is the performance difference between the 15 amp and the 20 amp versions?

And a thought that may show I know just enough about home wiring to be dangerous: All kitchens have a 220 line for the oven which is two 110 volt phases 180 degrees out of phase with the common ground in the middle. Has anybody used one "side" of the oven line to get a 20 amp 110 volt circuit for the 20 amp machine, and secondly, with 220 power available has anybody connected into the oven outlet to run a 220 volt European machine.

All that I have read about dual boiler machines talkes about the power issues with 110 volt power, either of these two ideas would eliminate any perfomance shortcomings with the normal 110 volt, 15 amp US line.

Thanks

John
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

Discussion of 15a vs 20a here: wforum/viewtopic.php?t=539

Living in a 200+ year old house with a gas stove no 220 in my kitchen. I ran a new 20a line specifically for the Vivaldi. If your home is fairly new you may already have 20A wiring running into your kitchen which would only require a breaker/outlet change.
blgros

Post by blgros »

Here's my summary of the thread that is linked above.

From the hardware perspective, there is no difference in the machines. If you buy the 20A, they set the internal switch to 20A and put a 20A plug on it. If you buy the 15A, they set the internal switch to 15A and put a standard plug on the end.

From the performance perspective, in 20A mode, the machine uses both boilers and you can steam milk and pull shots at the same time. In 15A mode, you can't have both boilers on at the same time, and so it acts more like a single boiler machine.

Some people seem to be reporting that if you use the machine in 20A mode, but plug into a 15A circuit, it will work okay if there is nothing else on that circuit. Probably not the safest thing to do, as your wiring may not be able to handle the load. If your machine has the 20A plug, you would need to either replace the plug receptacle or get a plug adapter.

To run a 20A line, you need to both change the breaker at the panel, as well as potentially upgrading the wiring to handle the load. Not all kitchens have a 220 line for the oven. If you did have such a line that you were no longer using, you could probably use that circuit and move it to the right place. Most big lines like this are at least 20 amps, possibly 30.

Bryan
oakland, CA
Last edited by blgros on Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bll230

Post by bll230 »

Thanks for the info. Looking at the European machines they run on about 10 amps, so 20 amps for the 110 volts would be the same. I did check my house and it has 20 amp wiring in the kitchen, so I am set for the 20 amp machine. Always good to get as much information as possible before spending $2000.

John
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

blgros wrote:Here's my summary of the thread that is linked above.

Some people seem to be reporting that if you use the machine in 20A mode, but plug into a 15A circuit, it will work okay if there is nothing else on that circuit. Bryan
oakland, CA
Bryan,

I think I remember reading that this can be dangerous as the 20 amp draw through the wires that are for 15 amps can cause a fire. Anyone attempting this may want to check before doing so....

Steve
MDL
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Never run a 20 amp device on a 15 amp circuit

Post by MDL »

It is foolish and dangerous to run any 20 amp device on a 15 amp circuit. 15 amp wiring is not heavy enough to handle 20 amps on a regular basis. That is why we have different gauge wires on different circuits to handle the loads.

I think that the Vivaldi probaly doesn't draw 20 amps very often (you would have to have both boilers and the pump on at the same time). However, I think that it is not wise to suggest that anyone run a device rated at 20 amps on a 15 amp circuit by building a cheater plug.
blgros

Re: Never run a 20 amp device on a 15 amp circuit

Post by blgros »

MDL wrote:<snip> However, I think that it is not wise to suggest that anyone run a device rated at 20 amps on a 15 amp circuit by building a cheater plug.
I didn't mean to recommend doing this, so I have changed the wording in my post accordingly.

I meant to just point out that some people say they have done this, and I agree that you could likely get away with it for a while. You should throw the breaker if it goes over 15 amps. But certainly no one should do it long term.
bbqnut

Re: Never run a 20 amp device on a 15 amp circuit

Post by bbqnut »

MDL wrote:It is foolish and dangerous to run any 20 amp device on a 15 amp circuit. 15 amp wiring is not heavy enough to handle 20 amps on a regular basis.
In theory, no single device (or multiple devices) on a single circuit would ever be given the chance to pull more than 15 amps, because once your current draw goes beyond that, your 15 amp circuit breaker would trip at the breaker box.

We have all seen a similar situation when we try to run a microwave and hair dryer on the same circuit for instance. The same thing would happen if the Vivaldi tried to pull more than 15 amps. So I really see the main issue being one of inconvenience, not safety. But just in case:

"DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK".


:violent3:
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Post by MDL »

Perhaps I am just a chicken, but I think that it is foolish to put yourself in a situation where you are intentionally overloading a circuit. What if the breaker doesn't trip? Then you have a fire hazard as you overload the 15 amp wiring.

Given that the Vivaldi can run in 15 amp mode I think that it is taking a very foolish risk to run the machine in 20 amp mode on a 15 amp circuit.
Niko

Post by Niko »

MDL wrote:...What if the breaker doesn't trip? Then you have a fire hazard as you overload the 15 amp wiring.
That's exactly what I was told by a commercial electrician. He helped me wire both machines in and he used some pretty heavy duty stuff compared to the flimsy stuff some builders use on newer homes even though they're rated for 20A.
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

Living in an old house which had VERY overloaded circuits before I rewired the place I can tell you that you will see reduced efficiency (aka Brownout) before that breaker ever trips. When I started ripping the old BX wiring out I found that the entire house was on one long circuit that ran from the basement up into the attic with many junction boxes. Considering how dry the 200+ year lumber is that holds this place together its amazing it didn't burn down years ago. I prefer to err on the side of caution & ran a dedicated 20 amp circuit just for the Vivaldi. Not fun when you are drilling through 8" chestnut beams to run the wire but worth it for the piece of mind.
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