Cleaning products

Post by **zoey** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:20 pm

Just wondering where you guys buy your Cafiza from? If you don't use Cafiza, what do you use?

Lately I've been having bad dreams about my boiler scaling up. Recently I had my water tested and it was at "1" (done at Sears so who knows how accurate this is).

Should I be concerned or is my water soft enough to prevent appreciable buildup?

Providing water to the Mini presents a formidable challenge since you manually fill a water tray. Anyone know of a way to ease the burden?

Post by **hlsheppard** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:12 pm

I'm not really able to give you an answer.

I'm taking more of an "ostrich approach" to my boiler condition. I purchased the softener/filter setup from Chris' when I got my S1 and replace the cartridges yearly.

...hoping that is all I'll ever need to do...

Anyone with water expertise want to chime in?

I've used Cafiza (bought online from Chris' when I'm ordering other "stuff") and Joe Glow. There is a local espresso repair/sales shop that sells some cleaner (called "Puly Caff") that is like Cafiza with OxyClean in it. It works pretty well, but not as strong as the Joe Glow (which will leave indelible marks in both chrome and plastic if you're not careful).

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:01 pm

I'm not sure what the "1" refers to in the Sears report. Water hardness is normally measured in PPM or grains. If its 1 grain per gallon/17.1 ppm thats pretty soft. Up to 3.5gpg would be fine for the machine.

I'm still using the Cafiza that CC included with the machine so I haven't had to look for another source.

I bought the S1 V2 because I didn't want to deal with refilling the machine manually. With the Mini I guess thats your only option. How often do you have to add water?

Post by **zoey** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:58 pm

I'm assuming that it was 1/gallon but I should call them to confirm this. We must have a killer water softener because I haven't put any salt in it since the day we moved into the house (yes, I check it!

)

Believe it or not, that was from the kitchen tap. My house is 2 1/2 years old. It really doesn't have any copper pipe water lines. They used Aquapex tubing throughout the house (not that it makes any difference).

I pull about 6-10 double shots per day through the machine. I fill it up about twice a week or so. I rarely have the boiler running unless the wife wants a latte. Once a week I fire up the boiler and shoot steam through it to recycle the water.

Good thing to know about the Joe Glo. I wouldn't want to eat up any part of the machine (inside or out).

Post by **ronsil** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:53 am

hlsheppard wrote: There is a local espresso repair/sales shop that sells some cleaner (called "Puly Caff") that is like Cafiza with OxyClean in it. It works pretty well, but not as strong as the Joe Glow (which will leave indelible marks in both chrome and plastic if you're not careful).

Puly Caff is used a lot here in Europe - very effective & not as damaging as Cafiza can be without care. Its good for cleaning and descaling. Also PF & baskets

Post by **bluesman13** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:59 am

zoey wrote:We must have a killer water softener because I haven't put any salt in it since the day we moved into the house (yes, I check it! )

zoey,

I thought the same thing when we moved into our house, and then I had the thing checked and realized it wasn't working at all and needed to be replaced. That's probably not your issue since our house was built in the '60's and yours is new, but I thought I'd share that with you anyway.

I just recently bought a hardness water kit from a local aquarium shop. As soon as i figure out how to use it, I'll be able to tell what the hardness of my water is!

Steve

Post by **zoey** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:27 pm

Well, I know the softener is working because I checked the hardness at one of the outside faucets (for the lawn) and it was at "38".

I went to one of the big box fishy stores today and they were out of test strips. However, they were kind enough to give me some from their stock. This is what I found:

Total hardness (GH)ppm: 0
Total chlorine: 0
Total alkalinity (KN) between 80-120
pH: 7.2-7.8

Based upon these findings, I think my machine is safe.
Is there something else I should be checking?

I haven't heard/read anything about running Cafiza through the boilers. I can understand that this would be difficult with a plumbed machine but, with the Mini it would be easy as pie.

Is this something I should do to clean/protect the boilers?

Post by **Niko** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:28 pm

I've only used Cafiza so I can't say how good any other product is for cleaning. It works good enough so I've never looked at replacing it with another cleaner.
The only Joe Glo product I've used is the wipes, those work extremely well but have since been discontinued.

Post by **zoey** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:29 pm

very effective & not as damaging as Cafiza can be without care

What kind of damage are you speaking of? I was going to order some today.

Almost forgot to ask: Based upon my water analysis, is there anything I should be doing to better protect my machine or is it just fine to keep dumping in water from the kitchen tap?

Post by **Niko** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:42 pm

Not sure about what damage Cafiza can do. I've never had any issues with it - just do what the instructions say and they'll be no trouble.

Post by **bbqnut** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:50 pm

zoey wrote:
very effective & not as damaging as Cafiza can be without care
What kind of damage are you speaking of? I was going to order some today.

Almost forgot to ask: Based upon my water analysis, is there anything I should be doing to better protect my machine or is it just fine to keep dumping in water from the kitchen tap?

I have never heard of water that naturally soft.

I would take another stab at testing, and make sure. Scale will do all sorts of things to espresso machines, and getting it professionally descaled every 6 months can be more expensive than just softening the water somehow in the first place.

Post by **zoey** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:04 pm

For giggles I checked the cold water tap in the kitchen and came up with the same results.

As a control, I used one of the hardness strips provided by Chris and also came up with super soft water (confirmed results).

Makes me wonder if the cold water in the kitchen was plumbed from the softener?? Is that even possible?? Time to track down some water lines.

Post by **bbqnut** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:06 pm

zoey wrote:For giggles I checked the cold water tap in the kitchen and came up with the same results.

As a control, I used one of the hardness strips provided by Chris and also came up with super soft water (confirmed results).

Makes me wonder if the cold water in the kitchen was plumbed from the softener?? Is that even possible?? Time to track down some water lines.

I didn't catch that you had a softener, but typically a softener goes at the incoming water line, so most if not all inside plumbing will benefit from the softener, so it is likely also softened at the kitchen sink.

That being said, I wouldn't worry too much if you are softening your water. You basically have the best case scenario, assuming you keep your softening system maintained.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:04 pm

zoey wrote:Well, I know the softener is working because I checked the hardness at one of the outside faucets (for the lawn) and it was at "38".

I went to one of the big box fishy stores today and they were out of test strips. However, they were kind enough to give me some from their stock. This is what I found:

What does "38" relate to? 15 grains would be extremely hard water so I can't imagine that you could have 38g of hardness.

The strips aren't all that accurate, especially the ones CC sends out. It sounds like your softener is working but if you want accurate results spend $15 on a liquid hardness kit.

Post by **bbqnut** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:24 pm

JohnB wrote:
zoey wrote:Well, I know the softener is working because I checked the hardness at one of the outside faucets (for the lawn) and it was at "38".

I went to one of the big box fishy stores today and they were out of test strips. However, they were kind enough to give me some from their stock. This is what I found:

What does "38" relate to? 15 grains would be extremely hard water so I can't imagine that you could have 38g of hardness.

The strips aren't all that accurate, especially the ones CC sends out. It sounds like your softener is working but if you want accurate results spend $15 on a liquid hardness kit.

Probably using a PPM type scale, where 38 would be slightly hard. I have some of those strips, and my tap water is around 100, which is considered moderately hard. See this guy:

http://www.fcwa.org/water/hardness.htm

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:37 pm

THat's somewhat misleading as a home with water testing at 38ppm has no need for a softener system. Chris recommends 50ppm as a safe hardness for the boilers. 0ppm is overly soft & will affect taste negatively.

From Home - Barista:

"Note that "pure water" in this case does not mean distilled or free of all minerals. Natural water contains calcium carbonate and some magnesium carbonate; these constitute the water's hardness. Overly soft (low mineral) water will create a light bodied, metallic and excessively bright tasting shot. Overly hard (high mineral) water will scale the machine, while the chalkiness of the calcium carbonates precipitating as the water heats will interfere with proper extraction. The best coffee water has about 5 grains (90 mg/L) hardness and 150 mg/L total mineral content. For espresso machines, water at about 3 grains (50 mg/L) and 90 mg/L total mineral content is used to reduce descaling costs. This is a compromise on the ideal water for espresso, but the 90 mg/L shots are almost indistinguishable from shots with the higher 150 mg/L mineral content. If your tap water is excessively hard or soft, look into bottled water or water treatment options, many of which are not expensive."

Post by **zoey** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:26 pm

What does "38" relate to? 15 grains would be extremely hard water so I can't imagine that you could have 38g of hardness.

I had it written down in the owners manual for the softener. It refers to "grains per gallon".

I didn't see any of the liquid test kits at the pet store today. I'll have to check another place.

Post by **bbqnut** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:29 pm

Can anyone comment on what the hardness is if you use one of Chris' water softening systems?

My guess is that it is way lower than 50ppm (like in the 3-15ppm range).

My RO water is very low at about 1.5ppm, and I have compared through some various anecdotal taste tests that I cannot discern a difference between that and higher ppm levels (I did up to about 75ppm). The acidic nature of RO water was also called into question, and in this case, I actually preferred the slightly acidic water over more PH balanced water.

I was equally concerned about the scale as I was about the taste. So I am keeping the RO water, and still enjoying my espresso, and hope I don't have to descale too soon.

Post by **zoey** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Can someone tell me if I can descale the boilers myself or is this something that needs to be done professionally?

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:44 pm

zoey wrote:Can someone tell me if I can descale the boilers myself or is this something that needs to be done professionally?

Considering how soft the water is that you are using in your machine you should never have to to even think about descaling.

Post by **zoey** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:48 pm

Well that's a relief!

Just for the sake of discussion, could a person put Cafiza or vinegar in the water reserve tank of the Mini and flush it through the boilers?

Maybe this is a question for Chris?

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:58 pm

I don't believe that Cafiza is really what you want to use for descaling your boilers. Citric Acid seems to be recommended most. Might be tough to get the vinegar odor out of the system.

Post by **Niko** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:37 pm

bbqnut wrote:Can anyone comment on what the hardness is if you use one of Chris' water softening systems?

My guess is that it is way lower than 50ppm (like in the 3-15ppm range).

My VII is reading at 9-12 ppm with Chris' kit.
My old S1 is hooked up at a water source that reads 19 grains! I change those filters every 3-4 months.

Post by **ronsil** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:37 am

JohnB wrote:I don't believe that Cafiza is really what you want to use for descaling your boilers. Citric Acid seems to be recommended most. Might be tough to get the vinegar odor out of the system.

-
I go along with using citric acid in a tank machine. Before La Spaz I had a Izzo Vivi & used citric acid for descaling & it did a very good job. I have always thought vinegar can ruin a machine

Post by **bluesman13** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:31 am

zoey wrote:

I didn't see any of the liquid test kits at the pet store today. I'll have to check another place.

zoey,

try an aquarium store. I got a test kit there a couple of weeks ago. However, it's a bit confusing for me as the hardness of the water is indicated in GH and KH. I'm still trying to figure out what the results mean.

The guy in the store was a self-proclaimed water expert and said that softening water isn't not enough to prevent scaling as their are other minerals present that can contribute to scaling that can only be removed by using a water purifier. Don't know if that's true or not but that's what he said.

Steve

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:44 am

bluesman13 wrote:
try an aquarium store. I got a test kit there a couple of weeks ago. However, it's a bit confusing for me as the hardness of the water is indicated in GH and KH. I'm still trying to figure out what the results mean.

There should have been a booklet tucked in the front section of the box that your kit came in that explains how it works & the different tests. GH/General Hardness is the test you are primarily concerned with. KH/Carbonate Hardness/Alkalinity is of more importance for those keeping fish.

For the GH test you add one drop of the GH Reagent to your water in the test tube & shake well. The water normally will turn pink at this point unless its really soft (less then 20ppm). Keep adding one drop at a time & shaking until the water turns blue. Once it does multiply the number of drops times 20 to get your PPM hardness. 5 drops=100ppm

0-60 ppm = soft
61-100 ppm = slightly hard
101-200 ppm = moderately hard

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:17 pm

bbqnut wrote:Can anyone comment on what the hardness is if you use one of Chris' water softening systems?

My guess is that it is way lower than 50ppm (like in the 3-15ppm range).

My well water is between 100-120ppm & Chris's kit knocked it way down to less then 20ppm; way less according to my taste buds. As you may remember from my thread on salty espresso I wasn't happy with the taste. I added a hard water line after the softener to blend the water more to my liking. The water going into my machine is now between 50-90ppm depending on where I have the valve set.

Post by **coffeeowl** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:36 pm

zoey wrote:
Almost forgot to ask: Based upon my water analysis, is there anything I should be doing to better protect my machine or is it just fine to keep dumping in water from the kitchen tap?

You should use some water filtration - if your water is soft, I think something like Brita would be enough.

Post by **bluesman13** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:45 pm

what do you think of the point the aquarium guy made that water softening isn't enough to prevent scaling?

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:48 pm

bluesman13 wrote:what do you think of the point the aquarium guy made that water softening isn't enough to prevent scaling?

He's probably right but when you add the softener system you are also adding a carbon filter after the softener cartridge. The combination should take care of any issues & prevent scaling in the boilers.

Post by **zoey** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:40 pm

Would that, in essence, produce a water that's virtually distilled (free of minerals)? I thought that was a bad thing??

softening water isn't not enough to prevent scaling as their are other minerals present that can contribute to scaling that can only be removed by using a water purifier

I've heard the same thing, hence my concern about boiler scale.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:03 pm

zoey wrote:Would that, in essence, produce a water that's virtually distilled (free of minerals)? I thought that was a bad thing??

"Distilled water involves distillation, which includes boiling the water and then condensing the steam into a clean container, leaving nearly all of the solid contaminants behind."

Hardly the same as what the softener system does. You guys are worrying too much about an issue you may never have to deal with. The water coming out of the carbon filter still contains some minerals unlike distilled water.

Post by **bluesman13** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:03 pm

JohnB wrote:
bluesman13 wrote:what do you think of the point the aquarium guy made that water softening isn't enough to prevent scaling?
He's probably right but when you add the softener system you are also adding a carbon filter after the softener cartridge. The combination should take care of any issues & prevent scaling in the boilers.

My issue is that I have only the whole house water softener and my Spaz is fed from the ice cube line with no additional filtering. Thats why I was thinking of an additional RO filter under the sink. thoughts?

Post by **zoey** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:06 pm

I called Chris Coffee today and this is what they had to say:

They don't recommend descaling the boilers at all. They suggest making sure that you are using the appropriate water at all times (3 grains or less hardness) and consistently monitoring your water supply.

They state that acids should not be used to descale because they cause pitting. Descaling must be done by a service technician.

So, there you have it. Primary care over tertiary care. Check your calcium carbonate levels!

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:08 pm

bluesman13 wrote:
My issue is that I have only the whole house water softener and my Spaz is fed from the ice cube line with no additional filtering. Thats why I was thinking of an additional RO filter under the sink. thoughts?

I'd consider adding a carbon filter unless your home system already has this. If it does I'd leave it alone & enjoy the Espresso if you are happy with the way the water tastes but thats just my opinion.