Lack of Steam Flow

Post by **BillK** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:36 pm

I have a question:

My S1 steam flow is no good. All I get is a low amount of steam flow, not enough to even begin to swirl the milk.

My pressure gauge reads normal and behaves normally, ie. reads normal high pressure, goes down as steam or water flows, increases as boiler heater re-builds pressure.

Hot water flow is normal.

I thought I had a clogged steam tip. Nope.

I thought maybe the steam arm was clogged. Nope.

With the steam arm removed, I turn on the steam and get only a paltry flow of steam out of the steam valve.

Everything seems to be working right and cycling right, yet steam flow is very low.

The next thing to suspect is the steam valve. The feel of the steam valve is completely normal, but this is the next thing in the chain.

My questions: Is the steam valve serviceable? Can it be disassembled and cleaned? Has this been a problem area for anybody else? Is there another part of the machine that is more likely to be the source of the trouble?

This would seem to me to be a generic S1/S2 type of question.

Edit: I just noticed that the initial burst of steam seems to be pretty good, but from there it just peters-out to a weak stream. I also notice something about the silicon supply tube that goes into the steam valve, which is that it looks like liquid is coming up into the tube when I turn on the steam valve. Hmm...

Post by **Niko** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:23 pm

Just an idea,
maybe the steam boiler isn't refilling enough water? This might explain the sudden burst of good steam power before dropping off...

Post by **BillK** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:11 pm

Niko wrote:Just an idea,
maybe the steam boiler isn't refilling enough water? This might explain the sudden burst of good steam power before dropping off...

I have been starting to think that maybe it is just the opposite - too much water in the boiler. When I have the steam valve opened, I see liquid in the clear steam valve supply line that comes from the boiler. Maybe this is normal. Maybe not.

If it isn't too much trouble for you, Niko, do you suppose you could remove the screw and take the top grill off one of your machines and see if you can see any liquid flowing in the clear plastic line that goes into the steam valve when you have the valve opened? Some liquid in this line may be a normal thing, in that as wet steam comes from the boiler it gets slightly cooled in the silicone supply line, causing some condensation. Then as it flows through the steam valve the expansion causes the liquid to go back into vapor.

Post by **Niko** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:17 pm

Mine has the liquid in those tubes also, Bill.

If you have too much water in the steam boiler, you'd get a bunch of water shooting out (more than the normal 1/4 oz. or so) - but rather a whole LOT of water, something like several ounces. Are you getting this symptom?
EDIT: I meant shooting out when you crank open the steam knob.

When did the steam flow problem start?
Did it happen suddenly or slowly over a period of time?

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:32 pm

How is the flow out of the hot water tap? With mine if I put a 4c measuring cup under the hot water and turn it on I get excellent flow with lots of noise and steam until it gets between 2 and 2 1/2 cups then it slows way down.

Post by **BillK** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:09 am

Niko wrote:Mine has the liquid in those tubes also, Bill.

If you have too much water in the steam boiler, you'd get a bunch of water shooting out (more than the normal 1/4 oz. or so) - but rather a whole LOT of water, something like several ounces. Are you getting this symptom?
EDIT: I meant shooting out when you crank open the steam knob.

When did the steam flow problem start?
Did it happen suddenly or slowly over a period of time?

Thanks for checking, Niko!

I do not have an unusual amount of water spurting out, nothing more than the 1/4 oz or so. It takes longer to clear this water, though, because there is just not a low of power in the steam.

I cannot say for certain when and how the problem started, as I have used the steam so little. I was gone for the month of December, and the machine was powered off and unplugged. I have been back for three weeks and just noticed it today. I got the new three hole steam tip and decided to test it out, and this is when I noticed the trouble. I believe I made some cappas just a couple of days before turning it off in December and had no trouble.

Post by **BillK** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:26 am

chas wrote:How is the flow out of the hot water tap? With mine if I put a 4c measuring cup under the hot water and turn it on I get excellent flow with lots of noise and steam until it gets between 2 and 2 1/2 cups then it slows way down.

The flow of water out of the tap is normal. I use this a great deal and have noticed nothing at all unusual.

I get about the same thing as you do. I have a 2c measuring cup. One of the first things I did today was to see how much hot water I could get. I get excellent flow as I fill the measuring cup the first time. I dump the cup and repeat, and get a fraction of a cup, then solid liquid with not much force behind it. I would say this is pretty normal, and is consistent with what you are getting.

I get full pressure on my pressure gauge - it peaks and stops right at the transition from green to red, which is where it has always run.

My thinking has been that there either has to be an obstruction in the steam path (upstream of the steam arm which I have already checked out) or too much liquid in the boiler.

Do you think that my normal pattern of water flow out of the tap, consistent with what you are getting, is proof positive that there is not too much water in the boiler? If so, then it has to be an obstruction.

Actually, it would not be a big deal to remove the safety valve from the boiler and check the level of water in the boiler. However, I am not sure what the level is supposed to be. If I did this and the water level is OK, and if my gauge reads normal pressure, which it does, this would be proof positive that there must be an obstruction.

Post by **BillK** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:13 pm

Problem solved, more or less...

I took the safety valve out to determine what the water level was, and it was about 2/3 full, which I took to be normal and plenty adequate for good steam generation. This meant that it absolutely had to be some sort of obstruction in the steam path.

I pulled the steam valve out and blew through it - no obstructions. I blew on the supply line from the boiler and met some initial resistance, then it was clear as I continued to blow. So, there was partial plug somewhere along the line, at the boiler outlet I suspect.

The boiler should be completely clear of debris, in that my water is softened and filtered via the Chris kit. The only thing I can think of is that, on two occasions, I have de-scaled my boiler after having accidentally run hard water and getting a small amount of knocking. When I de-scaled I did it through the safety valve, and re-sealed the threads with teflon tape. I am wondering if some teflon tape from the first de-scaling got in the boiler when I removed the valve for the second de-scaling. It is the only thing I can think of.

I don't know where the steam line taps into the boiler (cannot see the entry point from the front of the machine), but it has to be at or slightly above the water line. Teflon tape would float, I should think. What other kind of debris would block the steam tap?

Whatever it is, it is still in there. If the problem re-occurs any time soon I will probably have to flush out the boiler.

Any thoughts on what the plug could be other than what have speculated?

Boy, does the new 4-hole steam tip ever work!!! On my first try I got just about the smoothest, finest microfoam I have ever achieved.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:12 pm

Niko can fill you in on more details plus you can search for his previous postings on this topic. I think he's had Teflon plug up his steam lines at least twice.

Supposedly, LaSpaziale doesn't use Teflon tape during manufacture. However, Chris Coffee removes fittings from both boilers to drain them prior to shipment and I think they use Teflon tape when they replace the fittings.

Post by **Niko** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:05 pm

Wow.
I'm glad you figured it out, teflon didn't even come to mind and I should know better since it did happen to me twice

Here's the thread on it:
wforum/viewtopic.php?t=410&highlight=teflon

I even had some stuck in the hot water spigot: wforum/viewtopic.php?t=474&highlight=teflon+pieces

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:44 pm

I seldom use teflon tape to seal pipe/fitting threads. I find either
Rectorseal http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?sit ... uct_id=212
or Pipe Dope works better & causes fewer problems.