I'm ready to buy a VII, and have ( many ) questions...

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jmcphail

I'm ready to buy a VII, and have ( many ) questions...

Post by jmcphail »

Nice board, I'm learning a lot by reading here, thank you to everyone and the host for having this site!

I'll preface my questions with a little information - I love coffee of all styles, especially my own roasts that I drink in my Technivorm and Press Pots. The first espresso machine I had in the 80's was a steam toy, the next one I had in the 90's was a La Pavoni lever I found at a thrift store and had reconditioned. Then, for the last 12 years ... no espresso machine, only drip, pourover, press pot. A LOT has changed since I last made espresso!

Recently I've done about a month of research and my explorations led me to a La Cimbali Junior ( nice machine! ) that I bid on and lost on eBay. That was just yesterday. The reasons I arrived at the conclusion I *needed* the Junior were the obvious quality built into the parts, design and construcition of the machine, that it would match future remodeling we plan for our kitchen, that it would likely survive any catastrophe and still brew me a ristretto to die for, that it would hold its resale value well, and that I could use it instead of jack-stands to change the oil in my car.

To be honest, I investigated the VII and "took a pass" because of a number of what I perceived as quality-related factors. I like DB machines in a design sense, but felt that at my desired price-point I couldn't attain the same quality. The Junior is a pretty fantastic machine, and I was disappointed when I lost my chance to own it.

I'm reconsidering the VII, and it has a lot going for it on the spec sheet, and I've successfully visualized it in bright red sitting in my kitchen. I am, however, nagged with doubt on those same perceived quality-related factors, but I'm open-minded enough to consider that these perceptions might not matter. I would likely be pairing the VII with a La Cimbali Jr. grinder, or perhaps a Max/Hybrid.

So I've compiled my thoughts about the VII and if anyone feels like responding, I would be very appreciative!

-Can it make espresso to the same quality as more traditional machines?
-Are there problems related to the 53mm portafilter and group?
-Will this machine limit the potential of the coffee I use?
-Will this machine limit my potential to develop my skills?
-Are the plastic side-panels color fast? Do they fade?
-Can both the brew and steam boiler be descaled? I've seen the post about the steam boiler.
-I understand the double basket is tapered somehow compared to the single basket?
-Are there problems related to using the no-burn steam wand?
-Which bottomless PF is preferred?
-Are there both coarse and fine temperature adjustments on the VII? I only see them mentioned in the VI manual.
-Is it worth insulating the boiler? There seems to be divided opinion about this.
-External timers can't turn the machine on, is the La Spaziale timer worth getting?
-Any subjective thoughts on the quality in the cup vs. other machines?
-Are there satisfactory drip-tray plumbing arrangements? I've read about some less than perfect solutions.

I can see now how long and imposing this list is! I'll continue reading and studying, and if anyone can chime in it would be fantastic!

Thank you!

-John
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

If you've read this review; http://www.home-barista.com/junior-buye ... -test.html
which I'm sure you have, you know the S1 compared very well with the Junior besting it in a couple categories. For another $1300 I'd expect to see some quality differences but even the $7500 GS3 has plastic sides!
Since you can control brew temp within 1*C, vary the brew time/grind/tamp, ect I'd say the only limiting factor would be the owner. I've yet to see how the 53mm p/f is an issue. The steam wand is not a problem as long as you hold the rubber cover, just common sense here.
Timer & insulating are your call. I don't feel the need for either but you may. I also prefer to remove the drip tray & rinse it in the sink so no plumbing on mine.
The Junior looks like a very nice piece of equipment but its still an HX machine flushing buttons or not.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

JohnB,

Thanks for the post and for reminding me about that review, I have read it so many times and focused on the Junior-specific information I forgot the S1 even appears in it.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be the limiting factor for a long time to come, no matter what machine I end up with! :)
coffeeowl

Re: I'm ready to buy a VII, and have ( many ) questions...

Post by coffeeowl »

jmcphail wrote:Nice board, I'm learning a lot by reading here, thank you to everyone and the host for having this site!
Thanks!


-Can it make espresso to the same quality as more traditional machines?
YES!
-Are there problems related to the 53mm portafilter and group?
-Will this machine limit the potential of the coffee I use?
NO!
-Will this machine limit my potential to develop my skills?
Absolutely NO!
-Which bottomless PF is preferred?
hm... I got the one Lino cuts from original, from ChrisCoffee, but probably there's no problem getting any other one (you can find a number of suppliers on the net). If you can get the one from Chris, I suggest you do, for simplicity is grace :)
-Are there both coarse and fine temperature adjustments on the VII? I only see them mentioned in the VI manual.
Vivaldi II has Vivaldi I inside too
-External timers can't turn the machine on, is the La Spaziale timer worth getting?
Leave it on and only turn the steam boiler on and off as needed.
Last edited by coffeeowl on Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steve

Re: I'm ready to buy a VII, and have ( many ) questions...

Post by Steve »

My personal journey matches many others in the forums. I started with the Krups pump machine in the mid 90s --> Rancilio Silvia --> Isomac Tea --> S1 VII. Along the way I've done much roasting. Gone through a series of grinders, finally settling on the Mazzer Mini.


-Can it make espresso to the same quality as more traditional machines?

More traditional? Well, it will do what you tell it to. The big challenge in this sphere, temerature control, is handled very, very well by the VII. I think you'd really need a PID'd non HX machine to best it.

-Are there problems related to the 53mm portafilter and group?

Only in that I had to give up my favorite tamper and my LM triple. Otherwise, it has been a non issure. Indeed, getting an even tamp is easier as offset is minimized by the smaller lever-arm. My naked PF tells me so :)

-Will this machine limit the potential of the coffee I use?

No. Other way around.

-Will this machine limit my potential to develop my skills?

Only as much as the Linea limits Shomer and Hornall. IOW, no. You control the temp. You control the brew pressure. You contol the shot volume. you control the grind, tamp pressure, etc. A superauto it is not!

-Are the plastic side-panels color fast? Do they fade?

Too early to say. As mine is not in direct sunlight, I'm unconcerned.

-Can both the brew and steam boiler be descaled? I've seen the post about the steam boiler.

Yes.

-I understand the double basket is tapered somehow compared to the single basket?

A slight taper well below the tamp margin. Non-issue.

-Are there problems related to using the no-burn steam wand?

Yes and no. i have both the original arm with Chris's .9mm 4-hole. And I have the no-burn with its 2-hole. Simply put, both work well and can be used successfully on the VII. I prefer the original for a few reasons. I found it a little easier to get great microfoam with the new tip. I find the size and bend of the no-burn a bit unwieldy on the VII (YMMV). It doesn't tuch easily over the drip tray. And it reache a bit low to the counter top. If you have your machine close to the counter edge, that may not matter.

-Which bottomless PF is preferred?

I think only the Spaz fits.

-Are there both coarse and fine temperature adjustments on the VII? I only see them mentioned in the VI manual.

No. The VII adjusts in 1degC increments.

-Is it worth insulating the boiler? There seems to be divided opinion about this.

I've not fully explored this yet. But I will.

-External timers can't turn the machine on, is the La Spaziale timer worth getting?

For me it was a must. I love stumbling into the kitchen in the morning and having the machine ready for business. I used a standard appliance timer on my Isomac, which was nice and simple. While I don't like the added $200 for a timer, it works well.

-Any subjective thoughts on the quality in the cup vs. other machines?

Mostly up to the operator, of course. A good barista can tap-dance and get flushes etc consistant such that many machines will yield great results. All things being equal, I find that this machine consistantly outperforms anything I've used... it's just that stable. A PID'd LM will be better, no doubt.

-Are there satisfactory drip-tray plumbing arrangements? I've read about some less than perfect solutions.

The drip tray has a waffled bottom... odd. So it always holds a small ammt of water. If I ever plumb the drip tray with Chris's kit, I will emply some sort of filler to level the bottom and prevent water stagnation.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Steve, thanks for the post.

I suspect the waffle pattern in the drip tray might be for rigidity; since I've never actually seen it I'm really just guessing.

Re: drip tray, I have been imagining something like a food-service steam-table insert of the correct size living in the drip tray, and somehow incorporating that into a draining system. It probably doesn't make much sense, and I think I have to actually see one to understand it.

Thanks again.
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

When I asked the folks at Chris Coffee about the drain kit they discouraged using one. Due to the size of the tubing they felt it was easy to get clogs or to have stuff start growing in there. If you were draining into a container right under the counter it wouldn't be an issue but if you have to run the tubing aways to the drainpipe getting enough angle could be a problem. The tray holds quite a bit of liquid & slides in and out easily so dumping/cleaning in the sink is simple. If you want to see some pics of the d/t set up just ask.
Last edited by JohnB on Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Interesting - if Chris Coffee recommended it, it's good advice. It almost sounds like a cleanliness issue more than a functionality issue? Hmm.
Niko

Post by Niko »

I don't know why people doubt the 53mm PF so much, it feels no different to me when I used to pull shots side by side with my QuickMill machine. I actually preferred the 53.
And you will not be limited with this machine in any way unless you plan on opening a cafe to serve between 50-100 drinks per hour.
The Junior looks like an ice maker.
The Vivaldi looks like a big toaster.
They're both big boxes no matter how you look at them, one fits in better with most interior home designs and that would clearly be the Vivaldi with the different color side panels offered.

The Junior kind of looks like the Robot in Lost In Space, if you attached a couple of (aluminum) dryer hoses to it... :D
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

jmcphail wrote:Interesting - if Chris Coffee recommended it, it's good advice. It almost sounds like a cleanliness issue more than a functionality issue? Hmm.
They way they described it it sounded like a little of both depending on how far you had to run the drain hose to reach the drain pipe. I'd have to go 3'-4' & I don't see where I could pick up enough of an angle to drain well. Even if you did you'd still have to flush clean water down the tube to clear out the old coffee remains. Then there's still the issue of cleaning the bottom of the tray.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

I like how they both have a distinctive, designed look.

I like the look of the Junior's panels, especially the areas that look "double-walled" - it makes me think of Sputnik, tail fins, and the enameled, curvy-sided refrigerator I grew up with. The La Cimbali logo embossed right into the back panel is very cool.

I like the look of the S1's panels, too, I'm not sure what I'm reminded of but it's definitely there. Something along the lines of a 70's Maserati, maybe something you'd see in a 60's Bond movie, very retro-modern.

The two are almost a 50's style contrasted with a 60/70's style, in my eyes.

I like both better than what I see on a lot of machines, which I see as a shiny face plate with shiny stuff fastened to it nestled into a shiny U-shaped single-walled cover, shaped mostly like a box. They're more visually interesting than that to me.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Do you have a way of trying before you buy?
Most of us didn't but with more members on this forum and how the home espresso scene has exploded the last few years, you might find someone in your area with a Junior or a Spaz.
Or if you travel frequently maybe you can pay Chris' a visit to see for yourself both machines side by side.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

I know that's great advice, and I wish I could try one out. I have serious doubts that at my level of (in)competence I would be able to discern much, perhaps develop ideas about the look and feel, have a gut reaction to it, etc.

I've collected every image of the S1 I can find, I've just been sitting and staring at them off and on all night. The look is growing on me! I'm enjoying the photos in the "Pride" section of the board, very cool, I really like what I'm seeing "in situ."

I'd like to eventually develop a blend and work on that, but The Roasterie is local and I'll have a ready supply of fresh Super Tuscan to learn with - http://www.coffeereview.com/review.cfm?ID=1285 - I'm trying to guess how many pounds of it I'll go through before I pull acceptable espresso :D
Niko

Post by Niko »

Yeah, the Spaz does grow on people...
It looks much better in person, video and photos don't do it justice.
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

Niko wrote:Yeah, the Spaz does grow on people...
It looks much better in person, video and photos don't do it justice.
I agree, I find myself coming into the kitchen at night just to have a last look before bed. Pretty sick but I never did that with the Vetrano.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

I'm compiling The List of accessories I need - the question of a tamper. Will the RB 53mm convex base fit both baskets correctly? Any suggestions there?

Also, will a 7" Rattleware thermometer fit the 25oz. Motta pitcher correctly, or is it too tall? I know its one of those tools that folks outgrow as they gain experience, but I figure I need one to get me in the ballpark while I learn.
Richard

Re: I'm ready to buy a VII, and have ( many ) questions...

Post by Richard »

jmcphail wrote:Recently I've done about a month of research and my explorations led me to a La Cimbali Junior ( nice machine! ) that I bid on and lost on eBay. That was just yesterday. The reasons I arrived at the conclusion I *needed* the Junior were the obvious quality built into the parts . . . .
Having owned and used a current model Cimbali Jr for a couple of years, I can attest to the fact they are of fantastic build quality, second to none. But what I can also attest to is that they are woefully out of place in a domestic environment. Unless they're being used continually, they are not temperature stable. Let it stand idle for 15 or 20 minutes, and it will then take five or six shots across as many minutes before the heat exchanger and group temperatures begin to equalize. And that's after you have mastered the arcane black arts of standing on one foot, back to the espresso machine, holding a dead chicken by its left foot, chanting "Ommmm," and counting to 10 backward while repeatedly flushing superheated water from the heat exchanger.
To be honest, I investigated the VII and "took a pass" because of a number of what I perceived as quality-related factors.
Been there, too, before purchasing the Cimbali. Then after a couple of years I came to my senses, bought a VII, sold the Cimbali, and haven't looked back.
I'm reconsidering the VII, and it has a lot going for it on the spec sheet, and I've successfully visualized it in bright red sitting in my kitchen. I am, however, nagged with doubt on those same perceived quality-related factors . . . .
Quality factors are more perceived rather than reality.
-Can it make espresso to the same quality as more traditional machines?
Yes. No equivocation. It *is* a traditional machine.
-Are there problems related to the 53mm portafilter and group?
No. Only in the mind of someone who hasn't used one before.
-Will this machine limit the potential of the coffee I use?
No. It will expand the ease of use and variety of coffees hundredfold over what you can achieve with the Cimbali because of the VII's temperature adjustability and stability.
-Will this machine limit my potential to develop my skills?
Not in any conceivable way.
-Are the plastic side-panels color fast? Do they fade?
Unknown.
-Can both the brew and steam boiler be descaled? I've seen the post about the steam boiler.
Yes. Anything that can have water input can be descaled.
-I understand the double basket is tapered somehow compared to the single basket?
Yes. Identically to any other espresso baskets.
-Are there problems related to using the no-burn steam wand?
The VII is not equipped with a no-burn steam arm.
-Which bottomless PF is preferred?
If you're going to use a bottomless PF -- and I suggest that no one should, *ever*, except as a diagnostic tool -- you will be using one that has been created from a La Spaziale PF because they're the only ones that will fit. The workmanship of the ones Chris' Coffee sells are of superb quality.
-Are there both coarse and fine temperature adjustments on the VII?
The coarse temperatue adjustment is now obsolete. The control panel is now calibrated in increments of one degree C.
-Is it worth insulating the boiler? There seems to be divided opinion about this.
Yes, there is divided opinion.
-External timers can't turn the machine on, is the La Spaziale timer worth getting?
If you want a timer, it's the only game in town.
-Any subjective thoughts on the quality in the cup vs. other machines?
Equal. The quality in the cup is directly proportional to the quality of the coffee, the grind, and the skills of the person behind the portafilter handle, in no particular order.
-Are there satisfactory drip-tray plumbing arrangements?
There is a divergence of opinion. In my opinion, yes. The factory-supplied drain kit works handsomely if it is properly installed with the drain line at with the correct slope and if the drain hole in the bottom of the drip tray is small enough so as not to swamp the drain cup.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Thanks for the post, Richard, you're confirming what I'm finding out in other ways, especially your comment about the "water dance."

Hearing that you've used the Junior and the S1 and your opinions regarding both is really valuable to me, too.

Re: the drain, I'm going to just use the drip tray as-is for a while and see what comes up, it sounds like there is a working option that depends heavily on the work area, and I don't completely have that sorted out yet.
gdahl

Post by gdahl »

My previous machine (WEGA MiniNova rotary) had a plumbed drip tray. I thought I would really miss that feature when I got the VII, but that hasn't been the case. Looking back, it seems like I was always having to mess with the MiniNova's drip tray plumbing in some way. The VII's drip tray, even with those stupid ribs on the bottom, works great...holds lots of water, and slides in and out easily.

I am also very glad to have the timer. The price was irritating and I had trouble finding out how to use it at first, but once it is set up, it does exactly what it is supposed to.

It took me awhile to get the feel for this machine after being used to an E61, but the VII has worked out very well for me. And the results in the cup easily surpass what I was able to do with the WEGA. The temperature stability really is great.

I would suppose that every machine has its own "quality issues." But fear not...the Vivaldi may very well have the best support network around!

Gary Dahl
EricC

Re: I'm ready to buy a VII, and have ( many ) questions...

Post by EricC »

jmcphail wrote:La Cimbali Junior ( nice machine! )
It is too, I sold one to buy my LaSpaz S1 VI and now have the VII. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Regards
Eric
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

I have gotten such good responses from everyone with my questions, I guess everyone else went through this process too and can still remember it. I suspect that once I've had the machine for a while these questions will seem, well, ignorant!

In case you can't tell, I'm feeling pretty positive about the S1, I think there's a good chance I'll get it ordered *today*. :D I'm hoping the vendor will be able to offer a package deal on the S1 with a grinder, or a buyers remorse unit or something. I'm not sure about vendor mentions on this board, but it's a place that gets a lot of favorable mention for service and advice before and after the sale on this board and others.

I investigated my plumbing situation, and I believe I'm going to run up from the basement utility room that is directly below my kitchen - there is a drain down there, too. I have a couple of friends from work who have given me pretty good advice along the lines of "use tees instead of taps" and "put in a lot of valves, you'll thank yourself later", and will loan me their tools. I need to spend some quality time at the hardware store getting to know my options. I think I could even run a drain and water lines up through the baseplate of an inside wall and terminate it on some kind of wall mount unit like you see with washing machines, not sure.

The grinder, those Cimbali Max Hybrids looks pretty great, it seems like a way to get into a good conical at a good price, but I'm also considering a Junior. The reports I read are that the doser works really well, clean, static-free, and the grind is what you'd expect from a grinder in that range. Maybe a little loud though?

I checked my breaker box, I have at least 6 20A circuits in my kitchen. I have a refrigerator, electric stove, dishwasher and microwave that I bet are alone on their circuits, with the other two shared. None of the visible outlets are for the 20A style plug, though. I'll have to get this figured out, too. However I go, I think ordering a 15A configuration will allow me to switch to 20A if I find I have the capacity.

Most importantly, I have *permission*. Anyone remember "Rumpole of the Bailey" and the phrase "she who must be obeyed"? Yup, that's about the size of it. I kid, I kid. :D

But it helps that I've corrupted her palate with home roasting to the point where she won't drink any coffee but mine and COMPLAINS when she can't get it - HAH! I have a market of ONE! She's more of a latte person than a ristretto person, though, something else to work on...
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

If you are thinking about buying from CC as many of us have call up & talk to Mary. She will give you a good price on a V2/Grinder/Accessories package. They also offer a 30 day "buyers remorse" deal explained on their website. While there take a look at the John Guest section as it will greatly simplify your plumbing woes. Have you tested your water for hardness yet?
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

What you describe would be nice, crossing my fingers!
Niko

Post by Niko »

So what are you waiting for, did you order it yet?! :P
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

I had a meeting, lunch, and a meeting. I'm getting ready to now...
Niko

Post by Niko »

Me too!
I had a lunch meeting with my Spaz about an hour ago.
Gotta' love that timer...
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Done. A very nice lady helped me at CC, I have a red S1 and a Cimbali grinder coming by Friday.

Back to work, gotta pay for this thing now!
Cafesp

Post by Cafesp »

Congratulations on your new gears,
Just friendly reminder:
- Bumber tamping stand is a must (4me) & looks very cool!
-Cimbali Max Hybrid has conical&flat burr makes huge differences in grind quality&consistency.
Enjoy!

Cafesp
Niko

Post by Niko »

Nice!!


I forgot to mention....
you also asked if the side panels are light-fast, one of my Vivaldis is next to a window with a LOT of direct sunlight. No harm in the last 11 months since it got moved there. :wink:
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Sweet, it's good to hear about someone liking the Max Hybrid, and that the side-panels have never faded.

I'm ordering the "big box 'o accessories" now, the tamper stand is in there, along with a bunch of other stuff.

Still working out the plumbing, but I've had good planning help from friends, and have a handle on how to test my circuits to find out which are 20A. Lots of work ahead, it's fun!
EricC

Post by EricC »

jmcphail wrote:Done. A very nice lady helped me at CC, I have a red S1 and a Cimbali grinder coming by Friday.
Congratulations, I bet Friday can't come soon enough. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Eric
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Hard to wait for new toys, definitely!

I'm trying to find a cabinet/island/semi-permanent cart for my kitchen that I could use to hold the S1, my grinders, brewers, roasters and other coffee accouterments. Project for the day - locate a home for the new toys.
Cafesp

Post by Cafesp »

mcphail wrote:
The grinder, those Cimbali Max Hybrids looks pretty great, it seems like a way to get into a good conical at a good price, but I'm also considering a Junior. The reports I read are that the doser works really well, clean, static-free, and the grind is what you'd expect from a grinder in that range. Maybe a little loud though?...
What you've written about CMH is true. It's loud but bearable cause it growls thru the beans like "clawing" to the winding roads in 4 wheel drive.
WARNING!
And then you love CMH's grind quality, but want doserless! ( Chris doesn't plan to have it built! at least at this time -I've asked him). You got to look at Eric's grinder!

Nathan
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

I've done a bit of "study" ( read as ... staring bug-eyed, drooling, inappropriate physical reactions ) on the Versalab grinder - suhweet!

I actually want to use the doser, call me strange, I see the de-clumping from the action of the doser as a bonus. I have a lot to learn, but getting a doserless hasn't been a priority for me yet.

My current grinder, that I use for drip, is a Baratza Virtuoso, basically a Solis Maestro Plus with some supposed improvements. I'm using it for drip and press, and it's working OK so far, grind-wise, but the static and mess are UNBELIEVABLE. I've received 3 different grinds bins from Baratza, none help. I've tried foil, detergent, water drops, etc., nothing helps it. It's winter and my house has forced air, it's as dry as a bone and the static is out of control. The Cimbali is a big leap for me, and it's only for espresso grinding.

I'll probably need to get *another* grinder to use for drip and press; I want to get rid of the Baratza, get it out of my life forever. I might curse my sister with it. :twisted:
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

If you heat with forced air you should have a humidifier thats plumbed into the heat plenum over the furnace. Pretty easy to install if there's not one there already. Optionally you could add a portable humidifier to the living space. I heat with a wood stove & a humidifier is mandatory to keep the house from drying out.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

I bet that would help me with that "my skin is peeling off my body!" feeling I get here in the winter, too.

I have to look into this, but for now I'm going to get a nap in - could use an espresso, let me tell you!
Niko

Post by Niko »

I've been looking into a portable humidifier for an area in my home.
There were times when I'd get electrocuted (not just shocked) when I touch things, you'd see the arc & spark and my soul would jump out for that outta' body experience.
My older S1 is in a drier area so it would be nice to not get (almost) killed every time I touch the front panel. 8)
Anyone else using a nice humidifier out there?
...I smell a new thread, all about humidifying a room for less static on your grinds :P :P
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

I.... have... a... TRACKING NUMBER...

:D
Niko

Post by Niko »

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
bugbus

Post by bugbus »

Grats jmcphail,

I found my way here after deciding on the Spaz for my first espresso machine purchase. Thanks to all the proud owners out there sharing their knowledge on this forum.

I ordered the Spaz and mazzer mini e on monday also but ups delivery date for me isnt till monday. Well I am on the west coast.

I was lucky enough to find a 20 amp dedicated circuit right where I needed it. All I had to do was install a $3 20amp wall socket. I also had a whole house water softener installed and an RO under the kitchen sink system put in last saturday in preparation.

Looking forward to having some fun... My upgrade path: brikka -> spaz. When it comes to a nice hot beverage, I don't like to mess around.
Steve

Post by Steve »

bugbus wrote: I also had a whole house water softener installed and an RO under the kitchen sink system put in last saturday in preparation.
FYI, the "Water for Coffee FAQ" cautions that RO water is a poor choice for espresso unless a gilter is used to add some grains back into it after the RO process.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

And congratulations to you, too, Bugbus!

I have widgets doing my bidding and tracking my new toys for me...
Image

There may be an advantage to your schedule - I'm not going to play with my new toys until I complete the water supply phase of this project, while your schedule allows you to prepare in advance...
bugbus wrote: I ordered the Spaz and mazzer mini e on monday also but ups delivery date for me isnt till monday. Well I am on the west coast.
I have a feeling I won't have your luck re: 20A circuit, but I haven't tested them yet. I'm going to find the cheapest night lights I can and plug them in to every outlet I have, and start flippin' breakers!
bugbus wrote: I was lucky enough to find a 20 amp dedicated circuit right where I needed it. All I had to do was install a $3 20amp wall socket.
Indeed!
bugbus wrote: When it comes to a nice hot beverage, I don't like to mess around.
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

Jim - Did you buy an S1 or a V2? Looking at their site its hard to tell which one they are selling as the pics don't open.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

JohnB, I'm not sure if your question is for me, I am also a John ( if you called me Jim ).

My invoice tells me "LASPAS1 La Spaziale Vivaldi II Single Red", which I read as a Vivaldi II. I think I've been mixing my acronyms, calling it "S1" & "VII" alternately. I guess technically it is an "S1 VII" ?

Are you saying the photos at CC aren't opening for you?
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

Sorry about the Jim, I looked at the JM part too quickly. If you got the machine from CC then its a V2. I was going by your UPS info & that site is still selling the original S1 like most sites in this country.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Yup, from CC. I went with CC because I saw a lot of good word of mouth about their service to home users, and I know I'm going to need too much help to pass up the opportunity, and I think they QC each unit they ship.

Plus I wanted the V2 and the finer temp adjustment.
Niko

Post by Niko »

The VII is still an S1 no matter how you look at it, some people call it an S2 and that old (fake) photo on CoffeeGeek which sported the S2 logo didn't help the matter.
I think an S2 would be a 2-group unit or an entirely different looking single group (a new generation).
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

The V2 is definitely a big improvement brew temp wise. I was testing temps yesterday & put the V2 in V1 mode to see what it was like. The only useful coarse setting for brewing Espresso is 95C & maybe 90C if you play with the offset(fine setting). What you are supposed to use the other settings for is beyond me.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

I have the La Spaz, accessories and plumbing stuff coming in 3 deliveries today, and they're all "out for delivery now". And I have to go to work today.

I shoulda taken the day off, this is killing me!
Steve

Post by Steve »

jmcphail wrote:I have the La Spaz, accessories and plumbing stuff coming in 3 deliveries today, and they're all "out for delivery now". And I have to go to work today.

I shoulda taken the day off, this is killing me!
We all know the feeling, John. Hope you have cleared your evening!

Don't be surprised if, during shipping, one or more feet have unscreweed themselves or the dual manometer has shifted out of its window. These are pretty standard issues (as you've probably read elsewhere). Mine arrived with a fractured cup warmer surround; Chris had a new one to me the next day. At least my brewing wasn't postponed.
Niko

Post by Niko »

JohnB wrote:The V2 is definitely a big improvement brew temp wise. I was testing temps yesterday & put the V2 in V1 mode to see what it was like. The only useful coarse setting for brewing Espresso is 95C & maybe 90C if you play with the offset(fine setting). What you are supposed to use the other settings for is beyond me.
The old S1 is capable of the same temps as the VII, only difference is how much easier the VII is to push the buttons - less button pushes for 1C temp changes are preferred.

...after using my (older) S1 for a couple of days in a row, I hosed my volumetric dose settings on the VII :oops:
Too many confusing buttons on one vs. the other makes for a brainless act like this. Don't ask me how or why...it was very early in the morning - all I wanted was 95C and I got hosed, next time hit the "Hot" water button stupid! :banghead:
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

The V1 may get to the same temps as the V2 but I was wondering what the point of the upper 4 coarse settings is?? When would you ever use 100C-120C when brewing Espresso?
Last edited by JohnB on Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Niko

Post by Niko »

That's it! That is the reason why they narrowed the temp range on the VII, although I probably would've gone 90-99C but this wouldn't work without redesigning the current control panel.
They had to pick a range that would work within the given number of LEDs.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

The Eagle has landed!

It looks like everything I ordered arrived - there were 6 boxes total in various stages of decrepitude from shipping. Chris Coffee double-boxed everything they sent, and the inner boxes were pristine.

The only casualties I see so far are on the La Spaz - the cup warmer surround is cracked, and the gauge needs to be reset in the front face plate. I haven't plugged it in yet because the plumbing isn't ready - that's my project for tomorrow. The feet needed tightening too, but that's no big deal.

The red sides of the La Spaz are awesome - they are different in real life than they appear in the photos, very attractive and modern. The whole package is very nice in person, very solid with a lot of heft, but looks are deceiving. The shape of the side panels make it "float" and help it avoid appearing hulkish. The portafilter spouts need to be worked in a bit, and the basket retainers are very tight.

The La Cimbali Max/Hybrid, on the other hand, is one solid beast and looks every inch of it, and I'm almost afraid to go to bed tonight with it lurking in my kitchen! Fawn kind of freaked when she saw it, it dwarfs our Technivorm brewer, and the Baratza grinder looks like a toy next to it. When you turn on the Max it actually pulls slightly, like a powerful car will when you punch it. Some motor in that thing!

I'm sitting here intimidated by all this great gear and the boys ( two Rhodesian Ridgebacks and a Whippet ) are busy sniffing everything inch of every piece, and I've decided: time for a Talisker.
bugbus

Post by bugbus »

What no pics of the unboxing(s)? Boo

My shipment still due on Monday the 21st. A little apprehensive bout the cross country trip it's taking but hoping for the best.

If you can find time during your weekend, keep us informed.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Great write up!
Felt like I was there open the boxes myself 8)

...and yes, what happened to the pics?
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chas
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Post by chas »

The cracked plastic rail is rare but not unheard of. About one purchaser per year reports that issue so it looks like all buyers for the rest of 2008 are now safe. :wink:

As for the crooked manometer, I think everyone that lives farther than next day delivery sees that. I had that happen on my S1 but not on my V2. I seem to be in the minority. I thought sure the switch to the dual manometer would fix that issue since it is now bolted to the frame. However, that didn't change a thing.

The rubber feet always work a little loose. It is always recommended to tighten them hand tight when you unbox it.

Over the Christmas holidays it looks like they bench tested a bunch of them (perhaps the same day) and forgot to reconnect the wires on the two front solenoids after blowing the water out of the valves. Next up will be to see if you got one of those. If you press the button to pull your first shot and nothing happens, you'll know.
Last edited by chas on Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

I guess it was worth the 3 hour drive (each way) to pick mine up.
charlesaf3
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Post by charlesaf3 »

Just got the same package - max hybrid and Mini VII. Still dialing it in, I think I'm going to poison myself with caffeine. Seems like it will be really good, but I'm having channelling issues. Anyone tried underdosing?
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Not sure about the underdosing, Charles, I should be so lucky to have that problem!

Just a quick update, I've made progress but as a novice plumber ran into... difficulties :? . I had to undo and redo an upstream Tee three times before it would stop leaking. Lessons learned and all that, I finally resorted to using bread, and a lot of it. Once I could keep it dry enough I got a good joint.

Like they say, it's not DIY unless you hurt yourself. In between teardowns #2 & #3 I stepped on the edge of my toolbox while going down the stairs and turned my ankle, it has a huge bulge now and walking is difficult. I could hear the snap-crackle-pop while I was falling, but I think its only a sprain. MAN DOWN!

So for now my plumbing circuit ends in a valve that is shut off, but it's not leaking dammit and I have running water again. To make more ice for my ankle.

Tomorrow, onward and upward. Enjoy your coffees, you lucky so-and-so's!
Niko

Post by Niko »

charlesaf3 wrote:...I think I'm going to poison myself with caffeine.
You make me proud :P
charlesaf3 wrote:Seems like it will be really good, but I'm having channelling issues. Anyone tried underdosing?
Try working extra hard on your distribution.
Work it.
Love it.
Caress it.
Take your time with it and the channeling will stop.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Now the Eagle really has landed.

Further up the thread you read about my adventures and misadventures, and I can update the thread that my ankle now has a number of really sick looking bruises running in crazy directions, one along the side of my foot parallel with the sole of my foot. I'm visiting the Doc tomorrow morning, and suspect my ankle may actually be broken.

Today I learned how to fasten a mounting board to poured concrete using a rented hammer drill and Tapcon fasteners. After returning the drill, I made short work of mounting the rest of the hardware to the mounting board, installing the Tees and Valves and drilling up into a wall in my kitchen, routing the water line out through a blank wall plate and connecting the Spaz.

And, finally, turning it on and progressing past step 3.2 in the instructions.

Everything works, I ran multiple backflushes and a detergent backflush to rid the machine of any remaining manufacturing residues, a few more flushes, and I started pulling shots.

Everything works, except me - I am fumbling trying to get this dialed in.

For starters I programmed the cup dose buttons long, so I could manually watch the shot and learn that way. I may be zeroing the Max Hybrid in - but I might not be for all I know. I am using fresh beans from a local roaster, 3-4 days old.

In generally, my pucks are soupy and my shots are fast and blond. I'm not even coming close to 20 seconds, let alone 25 or 30.

The soupy puck tells me I'm choking the machine, either through too fine a grind or too hard of a tamp, I think. The fast, blond shot tells me, what, that the grind is too coarse, the tamp too light, and that I may be brewing too hot? I think I have a fundamental lack of understanding!

I'm aiming for the 30 x 30 scenario, but my skills aren't quite getting me there. Not even in the ballpark. I had the barista pull a benchmark double for me ( quite delicious! ) so I have a taste benchmark.

If anyone has a pointer, a tip or a link, please chime in. Meanwhile, I'll continue tweaking and see where it gets me.
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Quick update, I tightened the grind and dropped the temperature 1C, it has really helped!
charlesaf3
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Post by charlesaf3 »

jim, I'm going through similar issues - you might have a look at the advice people have given me.

I've found underdosing, with the tamp ending up at least 3 mm below the ridgeline, to help quite a bit. I think a scale will help more.
Vivaldi Mini II, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Rocky, Livia
jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Appreciate it, Charles.

I seem to get more consistent results when I stick to 14-15 g doses, it's true.

As for experimenting with temperature, I am grateful that I have a machine that allows me to experiment with a measure of exactness, and I wouldn't be in this position without the good advice of all who have offered it!
charlesaf3
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Location: Richmond, Va

Post by charlesaf3 »

an update, which I will also post elsewhere.

Since I was still having channeling while (supposedly) doing things right, I decided to investigate the factory settings. My pressure gauge read 10 bar during making a shot. Tim at Chris Coffee helpfully explained how to lower the pressure by turning a nut inside the machine - not that hard, no tools necessary for me.

At 9 bar, things are looking a lot better. Not quite god shots, but damn good espresso, that I am very pleased with.

You might check your gauge and see if you are high as well.
Vivaldi Mini II, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Rocky, Livia
Bigtwin

Post by Bigtwin »

My pressure indicates a "10" also. Should I or do I need to reduce it to "9"?
charlesaf3
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Location: Richmond, Va

Post by charlesaf3 »

I think the answer is - how is 10 working for you? If your shots are great, don't mess with it.

I was having inexplicable channeling despite doing things right, and bringing it down to 9 helped a LOT.

For what it's worth, 9 bar is frequently cited as an ideal, (coffeegeek glossary, for example) but your mileage may vary...
Vivaldi Mini II, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Rocky, Livia
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

CC considers 8.2-9 to be the normal range & I believe they set each machine to 9 before they ship. For those that are seeing 10 do you have a pressure regulator on your water feed line?
charlesaf3
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Location: Richmond, Va

Post by charlesaf3 »

no feed - its a mini II. I think I just happened to be overset.
Vivaldi Mini II, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Rocky, Livia
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