Water filtration

General Questions and Comments that fit no specific category.
Post Reply
coffeeowl

Water filtration

Post by coffeeowl »

What is the water filtration that you are using for your La Spaziale's?
I am going to buy an everpure filter, but I'm confused if I need one for hot beverages or the one for cold will do and then if I can use the cold water filtered by the 'hot' filter.
Niko

Post by Niko »

You should connect two filters.
A water softener after your COLD water line which leads to a carbon filter and then to the Spaziale. The HOT water comes from either boiler in the Vivaldi, so no need to worry about filtering hot water and such.
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

The 'hot' filter: water filter and softener designed to filter water that is going to be heated (like in an espresso machine)
The 'cold' filter: designed to filter water to be used in cold drinks
No way will I drink cold (unboiled) water from the tap, even if filtered.
So do I really need two filters?
Here are the links:
http://www.everpure.com/pdf/EV960112.pdf
http://www.everpure.com/pdf/EV961000.pdf
I'll get everpure for I have a seller in my city.
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Post by MDL »

Of the everpure units I think that you would want the one for hot. In addition to removing particulates the hot unit has some sort of scale inhibitor. One way or another you need to reduce/prevent scale in your boilers on the Vivaldi. I have no idea what "scale inhibitor" is; this could mean that they include ion exchange resin to soften the water or it could be some sort of chemical thing that you may, or may not want in your coffee. However, it is not clear to me exactly what each unit contains.

As Niko says, many of us are using generic filter holders and cartridges that are easily (and inexpensively) available here in the US. The first filter holder contains an ion exchange water softener cartridge and the second filter holder contains a carbon cartridge to remove organics and particulates. Here we can buy all of the pieces very inexpensively.

My suggestion is to go to Chris Coffee website and make note of what is included in the water softener system. Then look for those components and I imagine that you will find them.

If you search for posts of mine you will find my suggestions of vendors in the US who sell the materials at very low prices. This may help you with the specifications for the parts.

Good luck,
Mark
Weska

Post by Weska »

And I can confirm, coffeeowl, that I easily found the same sort of filter holders and have many sources for the replacement filter cartridges, some made here in Russia and more than one imported kind. (One is made in Poland, I believe, and US-made ones are on sale too.) Test kits, liquid kind, can be found in pet/acquarium stores. Mine was made in Germany.

If these are easy to find in Moscow, I have to think that you will find them in Poland or, at worst, from a European mail order source.

I drink the filtered water unboiled and for a long time before I had filters always drank unfiltered tap water unboiled. But that's another story. However, that lack of trust in tap water in Eastern Europe is another reason why I am pretty sure that many kinds of treatments besides Everpure must be around.
EricC

Post by EricC »

coffeeowl wrote:The 'hot' filter: water filter and softener designed to filter water that is going to be heated (like in an espresso machine)
The 'cold' filter: designed to filter water to be used in cold drinks
No way will I drink cold (unboiled) water from the tap, even if filtered.
So do I really need two filters?
Here are the links:
http://www.everpure.com/pdf/EV960112.pdf
http://www.everpure.com/pdf/EV961000.pdf
I'll get everpure for I have a seller in my city.
I am in the UK and use the Everpure 4H, http://www.everpure.com/pdf/EV961000.pdf .

This particular filter was recommended to me by the commercial coffee supplies firm that i use, and is the one that they recommend for home or low volume installations that require filtration before an Espresso Machine.

I also have the QL3B single head as shown here : http://www.everpure.com/catalog/product ... ure&app=15

I only have the one filter along with a pressure regulator in the supply line to the LaSpaz S1 VII.

Regards
Eric
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

The unit does the scale inhibition by adding polyphosphates to the water. Now do I want it in my coffee? :?
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Post by MDL »

I don't know about wanting polyphosphates in your coffee. Based upon what I have seen here in the US units like the Everpure are much, much more expensive than what we have done using generic parts. I actually started by buying the water softener system from Chris but have since been purchasing replacement cartridges for a fraction of the cost at a local supplier. With that said, Chris is relatively reasonable compared to what the name brand cartridges cost.

As I stated above, my honest suggestion is to look around and build your own system. I think that you can probably do it for a fraction of what the Everpure system will cost and it will be as good, or better since you will have flexibility and no polyphosphates.

In addition to the water filtration/treatment you will also want to install a pressure regulator with a pressure gauge and a series of shutoff valves. I have a "T" in my system after the cartridges and before the pressure regulator so that I can purge cartridges and test the treated water without removing the connection to the Vivaldi. In total my system is:

"T" at the cold water under the sink.
Shutoff valve.
Water softener.
Carbon filter.
"T" with a shutoff valve and a short piece of tube to collect water for testing or purging new cartridges.
Shutoff valve.
Pressure regulator with gauge.
Tube to the Vivaldi with a final shutoff valve just before the machine.

This is the standard softener system from Chris with the addition of an extra "T" and shutoff for the water testing and purging. If you don't use the extra "T" and valve you have to remove the input to the Vivaldi to either purge new cartridges or test the water. I prefer to do these things at the sink.

Good luck,
Mark
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

I finally decided on RO filter (reverse osmosis). Now I only hesitate between a set up with a mineralizator or without, anyway I think I will not let the mineralised water in my machine, right?
Weska

Post by Weska »

The usual advice on RO water for espresso is that it must be given backsome minerals. The most convincing reason is that the purity of the RO water makes it eager to put more unpleasant tasting components into solution than water with low, but still measurable, mineral content. That means you should let mineralized water into the Vivaldi.

There is undeniably a trade-off involved: to preserve your equipment completely from scale seems to mean restricting its potential to deliver the best flavors.

Now, I admit that I've never tasted RO-prepared espresso (unless some cafe was using it, but then I was not aware). You could--if you connect your RO unit with something easy to switch (push-on fittings like John Guest)--try it both ways and see if you can tell a difference.

And please tell us about your observations.
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Post by MDL »

First, RO water has essentially no minerals and I believe tastes a bit flat. To my knowledge most people use a calcite filter after RO and before the espresso machine. I also have no experience with RO.

In terms of Seattle water at 1.5 grains you are correct; if that is the real hardness and it stays there you are fine without a softener. However, an important question is the range of values?

If you have soft water it is just fine to either buy a filtration setup from Chris or buy the pieces yourself for substantially less money.

Same advice as I gave previously, if you search my posts you will find another thread where I gave the web links and part numbers for cartridges and supplies. I did not specify the housing and tube part numbers but they are obvious on the sites.

Good luck and enjoy,
Mark
marcus

water filtration

Post by marcus »

I shopped around and found there was no way to beat the softener system at Chriscoffee. I put it together in no time and it works great. I am using a flojet from a 3gal jug, the two filters, and no accumulator. Gives great peace of mind that I'm not scaling the boiler.
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

I found some more info on RO: the water it produces is completely demineralised and therefore not that healthy unless you mineralize it. :ky: Mineralised is somewhat similar to pure spring water. :love5:
So to my best knowledge and undestanding, I should connect my Vivaldi to this mineralised RO water.
Ater all, I have spent many tiring hours searching for water filtration info and the cocnlusion is that there's no ultimate cure. The RO is said to be expensive in exploatation, yet is probably healthiest, unless the mineralization source is flawed :lol:
OK.
My Mazzer is already here. My Vivaldi is going to come this week. Life is good. Let's do some magic so that I can get all the porn* stuff soon :D

*: naked :booty: portafilter shipping problems JUST HAVE TO IMMEDIATELY DISSAPEAR RIGHT NOW
And I want the Hottop... best in a month or two! :)
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Post by MDL »

To get started I bought the softener system from Chris when I bought my Vivaldi. It was simple and fast to put everything together.

However, when I then went to look for replacement cartridges I realized that the parts are available for dramatically less than Chris charges. I give him credit for putting things together so that you don't have to look for the pieces, but if you know what you need the parts are all generic and are available for less than the system costs.

From an earlier post of mine:
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 07 10:08 GMT Post subject: Source for carbon and softener cartridges

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just ordered cartridges from

wateranywhere.com (the web dealer for Applied Membranes). I ordered the following:

HF-2510AC 2.5" x 9.75" 10 micron carbon $7.00

HF-2510soft 10" standard softening $8.00

For my order of 3 softening and 1 carbon shipping was $11.54 for a total with tax of $43.04; far, far less than ordering from Chris.

Also note that for folks with very hard water you can buy a 10" big blue filter holder that is 4" in diameter. Those softener cartridges have a capacity of something like 2100 grains instead of about 800 for the ones we got from Chris.

Chris charges $28.95 for the softener cartridge and $19.95 for the carbon. If you look on the site I specify you can order the filter holders for very little.

Good luck,
Mark
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

I am one of the few who use RO for all coffee preparation, and like the taste.

In theory, the fairly acidic nature of RO water is one of the big downsides for espresso. I put the calcite filter from Chris (which raises the PH), and did not like the flavor, so I went back to direct RO into the S1.

In any case, there is a lot of FUD out there about RO water, and I do not subscribe to most of it.
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

That's great news, thanks!
:)
Do you run the water for coffee through mineralizator or just straight?
fireboss

Post by fireboss »

I am with bbqnut. I use RO - no re-mineralization. Great espresso, no lime/calcium sludge. I have heard that the calcite can make the water fizzy?
Niko

Post by Niko »

Another member named Jesse uses a RO system, his water is very fizzy. Fizzy as in Calistoga mineral water because he lives in the Napa Valley where the stuff is like that out of the pipes.
Maybe he'll join in the conversation if he sees this...
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

I posted some time ago about the fizz as a side effect of the Calcite filter, another reason for getting rid of it.

I get no fizz with the RO on it's own.
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

Thank you for replies! I found the fizzy topic.
I guess I will have to try it myself, the RO fortunately will come before La Spaz.
However, whe I read the descriptions of RO on european sites, they don't mention any corrosion/leaking etc. but rather that the water after RO is completely demineralized and for drinking should be remineralized and instead of a calcite filter there are dolomite mineralizators.
However, I was originally adviced to connect the espresso machine to a clean RO, like it was an iron or a climatiser :shock: and like I wasn't going to drink the coffee :lol:
I'll ask them if the water gets fizzy after the mineralisation.
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

To conclude the RO theme:
My RO setup works fine, I have a truly great water.
It's 7-step system: 3 usual prefiltration steps, then the RO membrane, carbon filter, then the mineralizator and then a far infrared filter. I have no fizzy stuff or anything, the pressure is good, system is efficient.
Vivaldi is plumbed to the mineralised and far-infraredded water.
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

bbqnut and fireboss,

I have a question regarding your RO setups.
I noticed that after I get the water for a cup (cold from the RO tap) and a glass of hot water from Vivaldi and some espressos, together with all the flushing etc. my RO still doesn't start to refill the water tank (filtration doesn't start). I can force it to filter water by closing the water tank valve and opening the RO water tap delicately for a moment, then after the system starts filtering (of course it happens in a moment) I close the RO water tap and open the tank valve at the same time.
This forced filtration then goes on. If there wasn't much water usage it stops sooner, if there was it may go on for some 30 or 40 minutes.
Since there's no way of checking how much water is in the tank I am worried of running out of water.
Am I paranoid or should the filtration start after every glass of water I take from the system?
fireboss

Post by fireboss »

No sure if I'll actually answer the question but here is my experience...

The valve automatically shuts off production when the tank pressure reaches approximately 65% of the incoming line pressure. I am not sure how far below pressure that the system must drop before they start to filter again. My filter will run for that 30-40min after I use a bunch of water(ie. a liter or more). It seems normal. I have not had any shortage of water for the Vivaldi and I preheat cups using the hot water tap and love to backflush/clean as well. The RO is also hooked up to the fridge ice and water tap.

Love the RO! Boiler safe!!!
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

hm... looks similar to my experience, though I think it's a little more then 1 liter. Maybe it depends on the water tank capacity.

Thank you,
Pawel
fireboss

Post by fireboss »

I was having some typing problems yesterday I guess. It should have been a gallon. It would depend on your tank size though.
Post Reply

Return to “General Q&A”