black cat espresso

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michael

black cat espresso

Post by michael »

what temperature setting on the S1 is recommended for the black cat espresso blend

does anyone also have a recommended grinding setting for this blend on the mini mazzer electronic 8)

Niko

Post by Niko »

Try 94 to 95 degrees. On the Mazzer you might want to try 4-5 notches tighter than the factory setting for starters but this is based on the Mini E Doserless. You didn't mention doserless so I didn't know which set of burrs (58mm or 64mm).

michael

Post by michael »

Niko wrote:Try 94 to 95 degrees. On the Mazzer you might want to try 4-5 notches tighter than the factory setting for starters but this is based on the Mini E Doserless. You didn't mention doserless so I didn't know which set of burrs (58mm or 64mm).
thanks. i have the mini E doserless 8)

Niko

Post by Niko »

How did it work out for you? Did you get some nice shots from Black Cat?

michael

Post by michael »

Niko wrote:How did it work out for you? Did you get some nice shots from Black Cat?
got some great shots and some not so great shots, but as someone new to the club, i still have questions:

1. what can you do to avoid that early blonding

2. what coffees do you like
8)

Niko

Post by Niko »

If it's blonding early on you, check for marks on the puck for evidence of channeling. Like a pecil-mark "poke" of some sort. There's so many things it can caused from, that's one of the first things I'd check. Also make sure your distribution is good, get rid of any clumps if you're using a doserless grinder and with a dosing one make sure you work that crank to loosen up the grinds to minimize clumping. Get a good tamper if you don't have one yet.
Your pump pressure could be high, therefore, causing channeling by breaking through the puck quicker, this is unlikely but look at your manometer.
I also noticed that my MACAP is more forgiving than the Mazzer when it comes to changing grind settings and clumping. The last dialed-in setting seems to carry over to the next with the Mazzer, the MACAP pretty much gives you what you dial in.

I like roasting Panama beans lately and Sweet Maria's has a nice Brazil for single origin espresso at the moment on their website.

michael

blonding

Post by michael »

maybe it starts to blond in the last 5 - 8 seconds of the pour

i have noticed a bit of the clumping with the dosserless grinder; i have a bumper tamper and thought i was overcoming the clumps with a good tamp

what temperature and grind setting on the mazzer mini e are you suing for the brazilian espresso 8)

Niko

Post by Niko »

The clumping can be a cause although it's not really proven, it can also mess your distribution up. Try breaking those clumps up a little.
If you're blonding that late in the shot, I wouldn't worry about it, just cut your shot off right when it begins and call it a ristretto, they taste better anyway.

The Brazil stuff you have to be careful with, roast it a touch on the dark side like Full City+ (don't reach Vienna!) and I brew it at 94C, the Mazzer is set at about 4.5 notches South of the factory setting. The tamp I calibrated with a MACAP autotamp (large table-top version) which tamps exactly 30lb and then I verified it with an Espro which also tamps at 30lb. After that it's all hands with the CoffeeLabs and various Thor Tampers. I know it sounds picky but I always bust out the autotamps with new beans and to keep me in check once a month or so...
Hey, certain beans "feel" different under my hands.

michael

blonding

Post by michael »

forgive my ignorance, but what button do you use to cut off the shot at the sign of blonding

have you ever tried the sant'eustachio coffee; 8)

Niko

Post by Niko »

No apologies needed...just hit the same button that you used to dispense the coffee again. If you pulled a double, hit the double cup button again to cut the shot off.

I've never tried that coffee you're talking about, is it good?

michael

coffee choice

Post by michael »

i find the sant'eustachio very smooth; light roasted with wood, made in italy; it claims to be the ideal flavor for cappuccino; available at gustiamo.com, but very expensive; low caffein content

if you like the black cat, this may be too light for you

does the espro fit ok in the s 1 8)

Niko

Post by Niko »

I actually don't like the taste of Black Cat (believe it or not).

The Espro fits perfectly in one of my baskets, no wiggle room. Most people don't like the fit but I got lucky in having a slightly undersized basket (have many baskets). The Espro is a nice tool even for the seasoned veteran for troubleshooting, dialing in things, etc.. I still like having mine even though it sees very limited use.
Now that MACAP autotamp is another story. To make a long story short, it's custom fit EXACTLY for a Spaz with absolutely, positively no wiggle room. In fact, wothout coffee in a basket, the piston jams into the baskets to the point where I need another tool to extract it! No channeling with this baby, no nothing but perfect tamping. It's so perfect that it feels like cheating so I put it away until I dial in stuff again...and it's great for parties when I need to stamp out 60 coffees a night.

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ScottW
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Re: coffee choice

Post by ScottW »

michael wrote:does the espro fit ok in the s 1 8)
I use the Espro -- a quality and useful product -- but is exactly 53mm and leaves quite a bit of coffee on the sides of my baskets, which are about 53.3 at the ridge. Sounds like Niko has some smaller baskets, but mine are all 53.3mm at the ridge line.

I was in the process of ordering a Reg Barber custom 53.2mm, and had already swallowed hard on the tamper price. But I just couldn't go through with it when I saw the $20 shipping charge. Heck, they're only about 110 miles from here!

...Scott
Last edited by ScottW on Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Niko

Post by Niko »

I ended up having a tamper for each basket. Sometimes I'll grab the wrong tamper and I can feel the difference when I try to use it.
The Espro is indeed a fine product, I now remember how solid it feels in the hand and it has a nice weight to it, almost effortless to get that click. As far as the cheater-tamper, I picked that up on craigslist for dirt cheap (just for the record).

boldstep

Post by boldstep »

FYI: after some experimentation I found out that the recommendation on temperature for Black Cat above didn't taste good to me (94-95 C). This gave it an acidy taste. Down at 92 C this bean is smooth and rich. It's still not my favorite bean by far but much more enjoyable. (Other parameters I am using: 17g, 30 lb tamp, 25-30 sec shot, 1.5 oz).

wgaggl

Post by wgaggl »

Intelligentsia had their FB70 set at 197F measured on top of coffee puck.

I measured 196.5 with the same method using my S1 and dialing in my preferred setting, basically resembling Intelli's setting.

That is assuming after a couple of blank 60ml shots and a seasoning shot, always waiting for the brewing boiler to recover.

The setting on the front panel of the S1 has no much to do with it, really the group temp counts (I have yet to see an S1 where the offset comes perfectly corrected at buying).

Grinder settings are even more variable, depending on wear, and even every new burr set is different.

Wolfgang

boldstep

Post by boldstep »

So, if I understand you, you are saying that it is meaningless for people on this forum to provide recommended S1 front temp settings (from the LEDs) for a given bean because that has no absolute correlation to group head temp? I haven't checked that so I don't know... I know Niko did some group head temp measurements but I think he checked when the temperature settled. I am not sure if he commented on the correlation between the front panel and absolute temperature...

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Post by JohnB »

The offset set on each machine should provide a brew head temp that corrolates to the brew temp set on the front of the machine. In the temp testing I did yesterday my machine is pretty much spot on after 2 flushes from idle. Since CC adjusts the offset on each machine before shipping the machines sold by them should be pretty close to each other. If a machine is still using the factory offset unchecked then it could be different.

Both of you guys are brewing the Black Cat much cooler then I have tried so far. I'll have to give your settings a try.

jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

For my own edification, what do two flushes equal on your setup, John?

From reading I get the feeling that if the offset is configured correctly, we're talking about approximately 2 doubles, is that true in your case?

wgaggl

Post by wgaggl »

jmcphail wrote:From reading I get the feeling that if the offset is configured correctly, we're talking about approximately 2 doubles, is that true in your case?
Sorry, can't help it, but the word "feeling" in his context amuses me. Either it's set properly as measured with a fast acting precise thermometer (most conveniently digital datalogger), or it isn't.

I measured the 'ideal' temperature for BlackCat with 197F (at Intelli) thats about 92C. So given that you have the same idea about ideal, BlackCat should work best for you at a display setting of 92C. If it doesn't, either your temp offset or your tastebuds are off (using the 'feeling' method)...

If the recent machines from CC are offset corrected properly, that is of course laudable. But also remember, many of the existing data available here gathered using the first version of the S1 Vivaldi, where you couldn't change the offset; something to keep in mind when comparing numbers.

Wolfgang

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Post by JohnB »

wgaggl wrote:.

If the recent machines from CC are offset corrected properly, that is of course laudable. But also remember, many of the existing data available here gathered using the first version of the S1 Vivaldi, where you couldn't change the offset; something to keep in mind when comparing numbers.

Wolfgang
The "fine" adjustment on the early machines allows you to correct/set offset.
http://www.rimpo.org/s1/S1Pix/S1%20Incr ... ontrol.pdf

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Post by JohnB »

jmcphail wrote:For my own edification, what do two flushes equal on your setup, John?

From reading I get the feeling that if the offset is configured correctly, we're talking about approximately 2 doubles, is that true in your case?
Thats how I do it.

wgaggl

Post by wgaggl »

JohnB wrote:
wgaggl wrote:.

If the recent machines from CC are offset corrected properly, that is of course laudable. But also remember, many of the existing data available here gathered using the first version of the S1 Vivaldi, where you couldn't change the offset; something to keep in mind when comparing numbers.

Wolfgang
The "fine" adjustment on the early machines allows you to correct/set offset.
http://www.rimpo.org/s1/S1Pix/S1%20Incr ... ontrol.pdf
Gee, of course I know about the fine adjustment, after almost 4 years with that machine I should know about that by now. :roll:

You seem to confuse that with the offset value.
There's no offset correction (other than a potentiometer in the controlbox) like the V2 has on the first version. The temperature shown on the display is the boiler temperature at best.

Wolfgang

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Post by JohnB »

You can call it by any name you chose but the "fine/offset" adjustment on the V1 allows you to raise or lower the temp setting 3*C in 1*C increments. This gives you a plus & minus adjustable offset whereas the V2 only has minus offset. Using it you can increase or decrease the boiler temp from whats shown on the machine to change the temp at the brew head.

jmcphail

Post by jmcphail »

Thanks, my newbie is showing!
JohnB wrote:Thats how I do it.

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chas
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Post by chas »

The deal with the original S1 was that the temp LEDs were in 5C increments. If you wanted a temp of 93C you could either set it to 90C and then put in a +3C offset or set it to 95C and put in a -2C offset. However, the temp display still indicated 90C or 95C, respectively. Even then there was no guarantee that the water temp was exactly at that setting (though it did pretty well)
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wgaggl

Post by wgaggl »

JohnB wrote:You can call it by any name you chose but the "fine/offset" adjustment on the V1 allows you to raise or lower the temp setting 3*C in 1*C increments. This gives you a plus & minus adjustable offset whereas the V2 only has minus offset. Using it you can increase or decrease the boiler temp from whats shown on the machine to change the temp at the brew head.
It seems I still didn't make it clear what the difference between the offset on the V2 and the fine adjustment on the original S1 is.

The offset (if properly calibrated) on the V2 makes it possible that you dial in a temperature on the panel and it sets the coffee perfusion water temperature on the group to that temperature. The offset is a compound of the error of the brewing boiler temp probe and the difference between brewing boiler and coffee perfusion temp. So after proper offset calibration you e.g. set 93 on the panel and expect the shot to be perfused with 93C hot water.

The fine temperature of the S1 is part of the temperature setting shown on the panel, not an offset. It represents the boiler temperature at most.
So if coarse+fine on the original S1 are set to e.g. 93C, you can assume that the brewing boiler temperature is set to that temp (neglecting the error of the probe) and you will find that the perfusion temp is at least 1C below that.

So whenever you compare a temperature setting of the original S1 with the V2, you first need to subtract the offset of the S1 it was set on, then set your V2 to it. E.g. I know from measurement that my (original) S1 has an offset of 1.3C between set-value (set-value is the combination of coarse and fine control) and coffee perfusion temp, so if I want to program in 197F=91.7C I have to add 1.3C and set it to 93C.
On a properly offset corrected V2 (and the V2 can do that, not the original S1) you just take that 197F=91.7C and dial it in as is, to the closest degC=92C.

Hope I made this clear now what I meant when I said to be careful when comparing set-values for brewing between machines.

Wolfgang

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Re: black cat espresso

Post by jbb »

sorry to retread over old ground, but i read through this post and want to make sure i have it straight.

the original S1, like mine from 2004, has fine temp adjustment to raise/lower the brew boiler temp by 1 C increments (up to +/- 3 C for each "course" temp setting), but it does not have a programmable "correction" offset as a distinct control feature like the V2's. I understand that.

But the impression i take away from reading this post is that these original S1s also were not "factory offset" (for lack of a better term) before shipping from CC. Thus, if I use the fine temp adjustment on my original machine to set the temp to 93 C, does this mean that I'm just setting the group boiler to 93 C without any sort of compensation for the temp drop between the boiler and the group?

For example, to take Wolfgang's measured offset value of 1.3C, is that the true temperature differential between the brew boiler temperature and the temperature of water exiting the group, or does it reflect calibration error/variability in how a factory offset was originally programmed into the machine?

reason i ask is that my shots since getting the s1 have to me been running sour, and i've been cranking up the temp to what seems like a ridiculously high value to try and sweeten them up. this am i put a tc under the lip of the basket and took some crude measurements that suggested i may be running as much as 5 C lower at the group than i've entered into the machine. i know the ultimate answer is to take my own measurements, find what it takes to get the shots i want and adjust accordingly. but if there was no offset at all programmed into the original S1's that would help to explain what i'm experiencing. it would also explain why the temp settings on the original s1 go so high.

thanks

Endo

Re: black cat espresso

Post by Endo »

Average offset is +3 or +4C (I think). You can read this post here on the subject. (Mine is currently set to +4).

http://www.s1cafe.com./viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1113

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Re: black cat espresso

Post by jbb »

Endo wrote:You can read this post here on the subject. http://www.s1cafe.com./viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1113
from this there is reference to a "hard coded" offset. does this mean that the circuit board is, even in original models without "controllable" offset, programmed to compensate for the temperature differential? ie so that the green temp lights are meant to indicate true group temp, not boiler temp? what you program in for your temp setting is what you're supposed to get at the group. you're not supposed to have to "add on" for the expected or measured drop.

this is what i thought originally, as it seems to be the only way in which Chas could have recorded the very nice close to dead on values that he did over the fine temperature adjustment range that are posted on the original S1 portion of the site. this is in fact the last piece of information that i looked at before i drove over to buy the machine.

but then there's this pretty extended discussion of most people having to re-calibrate (on those machines where its possible) to make up for a 2-4 C decrease at the group. whatever- guess i'll be mucking around with the tc thermometer this weekend. at least from what i saw this morning my impression is that its pretty flat and steady during the shot-just lower than i thought. no bleeding off the hump like in Sylvia.

Endo

Re: black cat espresso

Post by Endo »

jbb wrote: from this there is reference to a "hard coded" offset. does this mean that the circuit board is, even in original models without "controllable" offset, programmed to compensate for the temperature differential?
That's right. What we call "offset" is for calibration. There is also an additional built in offset.

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Re: black cat espresso

Post by chas »

Yes, there is a specific offset built into the firmware on the controller board. However, due to manufacturing differences, sensor design changes or parts vendor changes over time, and environmental factors of where the machine is set up, it's not possible for the "factory cal" to do anything other that get the machine in the ballpark. There has to be an end-user calibration to get and keep the machine spot on.
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Re: black cat espresso

Post by jbb »

chas wrote:Yes, there is a specific offset built into the firmware on the controller board. However, due to manufacturing differences, sensor design changes or parts vendor changes over time, and environmental factors of where the machine is set up, it's not possible for the "factory cal" to do anything other that get the machine in the ballpark. There has to be an end-user calibration to get and keep the machine spot on.
Ok, and in my case (with the control board from 2004) I can't alter this factory cal directly, as is the case with the V2 board. I need to factor it in using the fine temp controls. For example, if i seem to run 3 C lower than the set temp, to get 93C I'd set the fine temp control to 96C. Is that right?

thanks guys

Endo

Re: black cat espresso

Post by Endo »

This is well before my time, but that's how I understand it (you can find the old S1 manual from 2004 on the S1V1 site link).

You basically set your temp to say 95C and then you use the "fine temp control" to calibrate up or down +/- 3C to get exactly 95C. If you wanted 94C, you'd need to substract -1C from your fine temp setting.

Just be careful since it worked in reverse prior to Feb 2004 I believe. :shock:

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Re: black cat espresso

Post by jbb »

over last weekend, checked with a calibrated thermocouple and, sure enough, consistently read a temp at the group head that is 2-3 C below the brew boiler set point. so, with the current blend i'm using, if i set the temp at 95-96 the shots seem about right.

with the temp more under control, moved on to playing with dosing, which produced for me some surprises. i'd expected 15-16 g straight down the center in about 30 sec would be what worked best. these type of shots did in fact look beautiful and were great in milk. but for straight espresso the best shots came from two very different dosing regimes. the first was a lower 14 g dose, which if pulled normale, was very balanced, pleasant. if i tightened it up and cut it short (like just over an ounce), got some really nice shots but it was a bit of a balancing act. if they ran long-uggh. the other thing that worked was 18 g in the triple basket, pulled fast as 2 oz in a short 20 sec shot. will be interesting to see if this holds up with other coffees.

Endo

Re: black cat espresso

Post by Endo »

I concur. I just got my triple and it seems to work OK as long as you don't tighten up the grind too much (like I usually do with a 15.5g double ristretto).

I'd use the triple more, but I can't afford it with the expensive SOEs I've been roasting lately (green Yemen is $52 a kg). :shock:

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Re: black cat espresso

Post by GDK »

I still have 1.5lb left from the Black Cat and will try these settings.

Endo, where did you buy your triple basked from? Would it fit in a bottomless portafilter only? Thanks

Endo

Re: black cat espresso

Post by Endo »

Got the triple basket and bottomless PF from Joe at Caffe Tech for $75. He doesn't sell the basket alone (I asked).

The triple basket doesn't fit in the old double basket PF, but you could enlarge it with a drill, grinding wheel and a bit of time (although it wouldn't look so great).

The new bottomless PF for triples is pretty nice! :bounce: They chromed over the cutout area so it looks much nicer than the old double. Also, the triple basket is almost ridgeless! (Only a small bump). The handle no longer has a rubber grip so it doesn't match my other 3 PF's, but I can live with it.

I don't see the triple getting much use (the shots are OVERPOWERING). But it is nice to have some extra "top end" range when experimenting with doses above 17g.

No point anyone buying the double bottomless PF any longer. The double basket fits the triple as well. Anybody want to buy my double?

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Re: black cat espresso

Post by jbb »

GDK wrote:I still have 1.5lb left from the Black Cat and will try these settings.
Given the subject heading of this thread, I should have made clear that the blend i mentioned wasn't black cat. i guess i kind of yanked this thread off course a bit. i haven't used black cat since they switched. just didn't have luck with it on Sylvia, although maybe i should try again with the S1. Had a wonderful shot of the "new" black cat off a LM in a shop in San Jose, however. the blend i'm using now is a Klatch blend that they sell at a local organic grocery here. very handy because i'm always putting off ordering until the last minute and then need something to tide me over. from a good pull, this blend produces a wonderful orange flavor, along with some kind of spicy something or other and just a hint of chocolate. its a fun blend right now because our citrus trees are just coming into bloom and the smell compliments the coffee. had a very pleasant pull with a 14 g dose this morning. but i would be interested to know how the high/low dosing regime holds up for others with other coffees.
Endo wrote: I don't see the triple getting much use (the shots are OVERPOWERING).
Yeah, that definitely seemed to be the case for me, and why I guess I ended up liking them as a fast flow shot. But I could see with the right coffee, maybe different grinder that brings out the midtones more, and someone who could pull off the balancing act that it could be amazing.

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Re: black cat espresso

Post by GDK »

Endo wrote: The double basket fits the triple as well. Anybody want to buy my double?
Sent you a private message.

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Re: black cat espresso

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:I concur. I just got my triple and it seems to work OK as long as you don't tighten up the grind too much (like I usually do with a 15.5g double ristretto).

I'd use the triple more, but I can't afford it with the expensive SOEs I've been roasting lately (green Yemen is $52 a kg). :shock:
That is some very expensive Yemen!! Don't think I paid more then $7lb for any of the 4 Yemens currently in my stash. What makes this one so special?
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Endo

Re: black cat espresso

Post by Endo »

I'm buying Yemen Mocha Mattari local:

http://www.humaniterra.ca/en/produits/f ... 6&groupe=0

The green beans I've ordered online lately have been inconsistant (some stale, poorer quality than indicated). I prefer to see the beans before buying, which seriously limits my choices. This is the only one I've found in Montreal so far.

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