Crotchless Portafilter

Post by **bobroseman** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:28 pm

Any one try this mod or thinking of going crochless?

Bob

Post by **barjohn** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:29 pm

What is a crochless filter?

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:24 pm

http://alistair.coffeed.com/

http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espres ... 9300#69300

And then search alt.coffee and Coffee Geek for crotchless.

Post by **barjohn** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:56 am

Interesting. Maybe I'll give it a try if i can find the time to get the mod done.

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:53 pm

I'm ready to do the deed. I found a great sale at Sears on a low-end drill press. I've also scoped out that 1 7/8" hole should be about right for the S1 PF. 58MM Pf owners seem to be using 2-2.25" holes.

I'll take some before and after photos and maybe even videos and post my results. Worst case Chris will see an order for a new PF later tonight! No, worst case I'll be in the emergency room later tonight.

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:11 pm

Me, the new drill press, and the portafilter came through the surgery just fine. As I feared, my tamping needs attention. The first 10 seconds of the crotchless shot looked really good, then it when real blond and a high pressure jet started squirting out the front of the PF onto the counter. It would squirt for a couple of seconds until the pressure fell, then stop, then start again when the pressure went back up. Looks like it's getting down the side of the basket as I don't really see a fissure in the surface of the puck.

I'll take and post some photos tomorrow. I'm glad I was in too much of a rush to photgraph the first shot tonight. I probably would have gotten espresso all over the lens.

I used the 53mm tamper tonight. First shot tomorrow I'll try the 54mm tamper.

Next morning update: OK, I tried the 54mm and the squirt was much less, just one short jet. So I still need a little work. I guess I'm going to try a good group cleaning and backwash first to be sure the squirt is not coming from around the group gasket before I beat myself up looking in the wrong direction.

Personally I haven't noticed any more crema than before unlike those that have reported making this mod on other machines. Most of those other moders seem to be on 58mm PFs and running HX machines. MY crema was great before this mod. If this mod gave me more crema than before, I've have to use a measuring cup ather than a 4oz shot glass! Stay tuned for more updates. Pictures later...

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:40 am

The cleaning did the trick. It was filthy. I'd really let 'er go this week and the crotchless PF told the tale. After the cleaning, the pour was at thing of beauty - and I used the 53mm tamper. Photos of a pour to come. For now here's a photo of the chop job.

The process was painless enough with a drill press and a 1 7/8" bimetal hole saw bit. I used the movable "fences" that came with the drill press to lock in the PF. With the PF upside down I inserted the mandrill bit down through the PF hole to get things all centered up, then drilled away. 5 minutes with a small round file to smooth off a few sharp edges and the job was done. The dremel probably would have done a better job but I was too lazy to go down to the basement and search for it.

Post by **bobroseman** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:27 am

I did the deed to. Came out fine and if anyone can screw up a "ya-gotta-get-it-right-the-first-time" job, it is me but not this time.

Bob

chas · Post by **chas** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:11 am

I'll be interested in comparing notes after you've got a few days or weeks under your belt. As you see from the photo I posted above, before the chop job, I previously used the PF without a spout. From posts on ac this gets you part the way to the crotchless improvement anyway.

The raves about increased crema and noticeably better flavor, I'm not seeing. It makes me wonder if, with the quallity and design of the S1, that many of these benefits are inherent without the chop job.

On the other hand, it certainly has helped my tamping technique to reduce channeling. I still get a spray from time to time but much less than before. However, when going bottomless you'll definitely want to be sure nothing you don't want coffee on is within about a foot in any direction of the portafilter. When you do pop a channel after the chop the high pressure coffee jets can spray in any direction!

Post by **bobroseman** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:08 am

I'd post some pics if I could figure out how.

Bob

Post by **dan_kehn** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:06 pm

Chas wrote:The raves about increased crema and noticeably better flavor, I'm not seeing. It makes me wonder if, with the quallity and design of the S1, that many of these benefits are inherent without the chop job.

On the other hand, it certainly has helped my tamping technique to reduce channeling.

I agree, it's a great training tool (see http://malachi.coffeed.com/naked-diagnosis.html for extraction diagnosis examples). The photo below captures some dramatic (intentional!) channeling from my own experimentation. I have it on very good authority that a prominent S1 vendor will be carrying bottomless PFs in the not-to-distant future. :D

Post by **NewEnglandCliff** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:45 pm

Great to hear. Now who's going to craft a deeper filter basket by chopping two and welding the longer sections back together? It'd fit in a bottomless. I've been spoiled by having the choice of a triple shot (or a double ristretto) my La Marzocco triple basket provides for on my E61 machine.

Post by **wgaggl** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:26 pm

I've used a crotchless PF for a while to investigate my tamping procedure. And I noticed that sometimes, when the stream comes out perfectly fine in one solid stream in the middle without any tigerstripes or water-jets at all, I could still see massive channels in the coffee puck after the shot.
I thought the crotchless filter shows up more channeling issues than just looking at the grounds; actually I find the opposite (at least with my tamping): I see more channels in the coffee puck than during the shot. That makes me wonder about the reliability of the crotchless PF to uncover channeling issues; or does anyone of you think there's something like channels in the upper layers of the packed coffee that don't go all the way to the bottom of the basket?

Wolfgang

Post by **barjohn** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:06 am

An interesting point of view and a good question. I was about to go buy a crotchless PF to see if it helps me improve but maybe I will wait now. There are so many variables that one can sure waste a lot of good coffee if one isn't careful. I know that I am better now than I was but that I still have a long way to go. Especially when I think about my espresso experiences in Europe. They made it seem so effortless and yet produced such good results. I will be back in Europe in April and I will see if I notice anything different after having tried for the last 9-10 months to be my own barista.

Post by **Barry** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

wgaggl wrote:I've used a crotchless PF for a while to investigate my tamping procedure. And I noticed that sometimes, when the stream comes out perfectly fine in one solid stream in the middle without any tigerstripes or water-jets at all, I could still see massive channels in the coffee puck after the shot.
I thought the crotchless filter shows up more channeling issues than just looking at the grounds; actually I find the opposite (at least with my tamping): I see more channels in the coffee puck than during the shot. That makes me wonder about the reliability of the crotchless PF to uncover channeling issues; or does anyone of you think there's something like channels in the upper layers of the packed coffee that don't go all the way to the bottom of the basket?

Wolfgang

I have been using a crotchless portafilter on my S1 for the last two weeks and had been under the impression that I was experiencing no channeling and was very impressed with myself. I guess I better go back and take a closer look at the top of the puck. On my Tea, the crotchless filter definetly is a good indicator of channeling problems. I would say that at least 75% of my pulls on the Tea are problematic with some degree of channeling being evident by "streamers". I get no streamers with the S1.

Post by **dan_kehn** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:13 pm

dan_kehn wrote:I have it on very good authority that a prominent S1 vendor will be carrying bottomless PFs in the not-to-distant future. :D

Voil

Post by **NewEnglandCliff** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:10 pm

Excellent! Any word on price or availability? JUST KIDDING. Thanks for the update. Another great thing about the bottomless portafilters is they're so damn easy to clean. I'm interested.

Looks like a slightly deeper basket would fit in there, even if it weren't chopped. Maybe Chris Coffee will get La Spaziale working on that.

Post by **dan_kehn** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:28 pm

NewEnglandCliff wrote:Looks like a slightly deeper basket would fit in there, even if it weren't chopped. Maybe Chris Coffee will get La Spaziale working on that.

What benefit do you expect from a deeper basket? I know triple-basket devotees and just as many who've said it brings no advantage to the cup, other than "more espresso." I used one for a few months (~22 grams) and switched back to double baskets (~15 grams). Hmm-m, a side-by-side test would be an interesting experiment for our regular CCC Friday Espresso Lab.

PS: I'm looking for article peer reviewers. If you're interested, send me a note at the e-mail below.

Post by **NewEnglandCliff** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:17 pm

Well that's all it is, a little more of the good stuff. Or a rich 1.5oz ristretto. Maybe some Italians would like to call this American excess. I've had some shots there that were less than 1/2oz, less than I could spit! At first I thought they were just taunting this particular american. No wonder they have ten a day. All due respect, but a little too fleeting for me. I enjoy the extra few seconds I get to linger over and savor what my Super Big Gulp 1.5oz provides. And I only drink one all day.

Post by **Johan Lindroos** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:05 am

Dan, I think that the most obvious difference (except more espresso of course) is that it means a lot less risk for channeling, due to a deeper coffee dose. I have 21 g filter to the Reneka and I have noticed that channeling occurs less than on the 7 g or 14 g filters. But it

Post by **padillatim** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:13 pm

One of the adjustments with a triple is in technique - you gotta be level. This is highlighted (or maybe just shown for the first time) by the bottomles PF. On my old machine, a Pulser, I used a triple with a bottomles LM and liked it, but went back to a double basket. Just a preference. If you can get a good technique with a triple it is very forgiving in terms of channeling.

I have been using the S1 for about 2 weeks now and I have started to find the sweet spot (I have been using a bottomless PF exclusively). Same as with a triple - level tamp is king. I find the S1 basket to be resistant to channeling, but very able to find the low spot in the puck and overextract it. I have actually reevaluated my whole technique and continue to make adjustments. If I get consistently good, I will share :)

Anyway, It would be interesting to see a "triple" for the S1, but since the double basket already holds more coffee than a standard double and is already deeper...

Post by **NewEnglandCliff** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:16 pm

Johan, a little off topic here. Ever since you mentioned that Impod makes their tampers in different sizes (besides 58mm) I've been trying to contact them. I want to buy two more of their tampers but they're ignoring my emails. Maybe it's because I can only write in english. Last I knew, though, english was a requirement all through school there. Anyway, I can't even find a phone number for them on the web. Can you find one anywhere? Appreciate any help.

Post by **Johan Lindroos** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:17 am

New.Eng.Cl., you can approximate that all swedish people knows english. I can

Post by **NewEnglandCliff** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:29 pm

OK, thanks Johan. I'll give them a try.

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