Got my new S1 (at least I think it's new...)

[JonW]

I received my new S1 and La Cimbali Jr. grinder this week. I'll be firing it up for the first time tomorrow after I can go out and get some beans. Both machines are monsters! My wife thinks I'm nuts, but we designed a space in our new kitchen just for the espresso machine and grinder. Now I don't have to do my brewing out in the garage - Yeah!

Is it just me or would others expect a new machine to be a bit cleaner when coming right out of the box? (see attached pic). This thing looks like it had a steam bath and wasn't wiped down afterwards. The top was obviously cleaned, but not under the front panel. Anyone else have theirs arrive looking like this?

[cappadoc]

Jon,
Congrats on the new S1! I believe that they are tested prior to shipping, which may explain the water spots.

Enjoy the new machine!

Jeff

[admin]

Is it just me or would others expect a new machine to be a bit cleaner when coming right out of the box? (see attached pic). This thing looks like it had a steam bath and wasn't wiped down afterwards. The top was obviously cleaned, but not under the front panel. Anyone else have theirs arrive looking like this?

Jon, who did you buy this machine from? It is unusual to receive one in this condition. Whatever they did to cause the spray that they didn't clean up was obviously done with the front cover off. The water spots are clearly visible on the boiler and other internal parts as well. Whereever they're located, they sure do have hard water!

It's been 2 1/2 years so I may be remembering wrong, but I thought there was a plastic film on the chrome parts of mine that I had to peel off on receipt.

[alsterling]

Jon:

I have to ask also.....did you get the machine from Chriscoffee or who?

I've spoken to Roger, the tech at CC, and yes, they do bench test, but no, I didn't receive my machine in a spotted condition. What I did get was a "twisted off center - not right reading" gauge.

When I finally got around to building my brew pressure testing device, and pulling the front cover off (rather simple since it's just those two phillips head screws on the panel.....well, I found I could twist the gauge and bend it (gently) such that it was both rotated back to the 12 O'clock position and centered within the diameter cutout.

Since you have mineralized spots on the boiler, I'm wondering where the spray came from? I would call your supplier and ask specifically about YOUR machine; not a generic restatment of how they prep all machines. Find the tech that bench tested the machine, if possible, and ask what may have happened. It's probably a non-issue; just a case of poor housekeeping.

My phone is 949-305-0488 and my email is alsterling@earthlink.net. Please email your phone info and I'll call you back. I'd like to get a little more "inside skinny" on the supplier.

Best, Al

[alsterling]

Jon:

I'm sorry......I forgot to respond to the "premask" that appears on many sheet metal panels. And I agree........boy, that's some pretty mineralized water they got there?

In my industry, most metals are delivered with premask. Especially "specular" or "chromed" finished metals. Only if the metal is being "fab'd only" will the premask remain. I've found that on my old Expobar. If the metal is being marked, new premask is then laminated on the sheets after printing, but before blanking or fab. (just had to throw that all in........)

However, on the S1, I was somewhat surprised, but not shocked, that it arrived, well insulated by custom foam corners, etc., but not premasked. I thought the heated cup-tray edge/border insert on top was premasked, as it's plastic. But unless I'm missing something, the matted finish is the plastic. Believe it or not, I need to got back and check? Many plastic sheet stock items come from the mills with premask.

For what it's worth, and to protect the cup tray from scratches, I put a paper towel on the stainless perf'd top area and then punched holes in the towel to vent the hot air. I didn't want the porcelin cups to scratch the stainless. (who knows, I may sell the machine.......but then, I'm also a neat freak.)

Best, Al

[chas]

I have a vague recollection of pulling plastic masking off some part of the S1. It's possible it wasn't from that part.

BTW: I asked Chris about the pressure guages getting out of whack and suggested they might put a piece of clear plastic tape across the guage and onto the chrome before shipment. He says they've tried that and a couple of other things and haven't really found anything that works yet.

Since it's fairly easy for the user to fix, I think he's erring on the side of caution rather than risk getting adhesives marring the chrome finish. If that piece were plastic masked this wouldn't be an issue - so that's probably my answer as to whether or not it is right there!

[chas]

Jon:

I hope you removed the shower screens before you took those pictures. Otherwise, you have another problem.... :D

[alsterling]

Chas:

Since finally tweaking in my entire espresso bar for my "beloved" Malabar Gold, I'm afraid to even TOUCH the back panel, etc. (smile)

As for the gauge, I was surprised to see that it "floats" on the end of the copper tube. I was going to loosen the gauge or tighten it to re-center and correct its canted angle......but realizing that there was little to hold onto, I opted for a gentle bending.

I hope Jon answers on the vendor question. I wouldn't expect Chris' shop would let the machine go out without a little wipe down? I vaguely remember Jon mentioning Savrona Store here in Gardena, CA? It's hard to get everyone totally clear, since most contacts are only through the forum. But then, if Avatar Jon is here in SoCal, I'd think he would have "will called" the S1 if he had bought it locally?

I did have a nice phone chat with Dean, a visitor to this forum. I called him this AM. He's placing an order for an S1 and grinder with Mary on Monday. I filled him in, and got his input, on the old "grinder; doser v doserless" thing............ we ended up thinking that the doser model is like getting an extra appliance for the same cost as a doserless, where they take it away from you and still pay, basically, the same!? Someone's got to break up the clumps....why not do it with the doser mechanism?

Let's see what Jon says about the vendor?

[JonW]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I purposefully left the vendor name out of my original post because I didn't want to start anything that sounded like it was bashing the (well respected) vendor if this was a non-issue. From the responses so far, it seems like other machines did not arrive this way and maybe Al is right and that this is just poor housekeeping (very poor) from the tech that tested it.

I sent an e-mail and pics this morning to the vendor to ask what they think happened with it. I will report back what the vendor has to say (and who it is) after I get their response.

Obviously, this is a fantastic machine and I was very excited to get it. However, the "out of the box" experience was quite a let down. :(

- Jon


PS: Yes Chas, I did remove the screens, so that is not an issue.

[admin]

Chas:
Someone's got to break up the clumps....why not do it with the doser mechanism?

Speaking of clumps, this reminds me of a discovery I make after replacing my Mazzer Mini w/ Doser with the Mini-E version. I noticed a grid taped over the exit chute in the E that was not part of the original. I thought this looked unnecessary and assumed their lawyers had gotten involved in that part of the design - the better to keep fingers out. I promptly removed it in order to have better access to brush out the chute. As soon as I removed it I discovered its real function. It breaks up the clumps and also seems to help the coffee fall and exit straight down.

[alsterling]

Chas..... I'm going to call Chris Monday AM and find out what parts they have for replacing the doser. This just seems to be too much of a "no brainer." I heard about the grid from a CG post. Seems that clumping is an issue.

Referencing Home-barista.com, there's the "Weiss" system where he uses a yogurt cup and then a surgical pin. It's more involved than just keeping the darn doser in place.

If you have to add more appliances to the espresso area, then that's not good in my book. I want to simplify the number of tools and processes, not keep adding.

Best, Al

[JonW]

I got an e-mail from Chris @ ChrisCoffee today stating that it did not leave their place looking this way and that UPS must have turned it upside down so the remaining water in the boiler leaked out.


I was able to fire it up tonight and work on dialing in the Jr. grinder and my shots. I was using up the rest of my Costco Expresso roast for testing it out. Wow - is that stuff harsh! I think it's time to go mail order and try some of the good stuff. I've gotten away from drinking straight espresso because I never could get it just perfect. I usually drink milk based drinks, but I'm looking forward to trying out some really good beans (Redline or Black Cat ???) to try some quality straight shots.

I really like how quite this machine is. I may replace the little fan underneath with a quieter one though - that seems to be the only noticable noise.

In the first hour I had it running, I was getting some whistling coming out of it. It didn't seem loud or fierce enough to be the relief valve, but more of a high pitch like a dog whistle. After doing my test shots for about 2 hours, it seems to have gone away.

We'll see what tomorrow brings.

[chas]

I got an e-mail from Chris @ ChrisCoffee today stating that it did not leave their place looking this way and that UPS must have turned it upside down so the remaining water in the boiler leaked out.

In the first hour I had it running, I was getting some whistling coming out of it. It didn't seem loud or fierce enough to be the relief valve, but more of a high pitch like a dog whistle. After doing my test shots for about 2 hours, it seems to have gone away.

I guess that makes sense since it's almost impossible to get all the water out. Must have been the relief valve. I think that is actually a vaccuum relief valve since it opens when the unit cools and closes again when steam pressure builds up. Either there or out of the group itself are probably the only spots where water could leak in transit.

[Cameron Reddy]

From everyting I have read, Chris appears to run a good shop... but THAT sure looks like a used machine. Those spots came from a spray... not a leak.

[JonW]

From everyting I have read, Chris appears to run a good shop... but THAT sure looks like a used machine. Those spots came from a spray... not a leak.

I don't believe it happened in transit either. To me it looks like it had a heavy steam bath like what comes out when you use the hot water tap. Then while sitting in it's normal position, the dripping condensation dried. That is pretty obvious. If it leaked out in transit, it would have streaked/run, not have been spotted all over.

Tonight I turned the machine on and then left the house to run to the store. A couple minutes later my wife called to tell me the machine sounded like a smoke alarm going off. She said no steam was coming out so I told her to let it warm up and see if it stops. It did within a minute. That's a couple of times it's done that now. I can't imagine that is normal. I'm starting to wonder if I got someone else's lemon. :(

[TruthBrew]

Sounded like a smoke alarm...? Surely not normal.

FYI, I also purchased from Chris Coffee and had no issues other than a missed item in my original purchase (which was reshipped free).

PS: Chas, should we move this to "Day 1 Failures" perhaps?

[JonW]

I wouldn't call it a day one failure yet. It made a bit more noise this morning while steaming milk, but not during the initial heat up. Because of this, I'm thinking it is related to the steam boiler and not the group boiler. I'll give it a few more days to see if it works itself out before calling the techs at Chris's. It may just be the valve needing to get seated properly.

Also, a question related to the steam boiler: When using the hot water tap, do you normally get a fierce sputtering of steam along with the water or should it just be a nice flow of water out of the tap (like how the brew group would flow if there were no grinds in the PF)?

[Cameron Reddy]

I get a very mild sputtering.

I wouldn't wait to call service. With a plumbed unit you could have one heck of a mess if a fitting breaks or comes loose.

And I'd sure ask about the history of this machine.

[JonW]

I'll use the movie mode on my digital camera tonight to show what the hot water output looks like. I've not been leaving the machine on just for safety's sake. I just had new hardwood floors put in last week. If I had a leak, I would be in big trouble....

[Cameron Reddy]

I have a suspicion that your symptoms may be related to the water spots on the underside of your unit. Is it possible that a fitting broke or came loose on someone else, causing hot water to spew all over the place? If that someone just sent it back to Chris and never said anything--it might explain things. That is, no one would suspect Chris of dishonorable business practices... and yet you have pretty strong evidence of a preexisting problem... so the likely explanation is that he had no idea of something amiss.

[Barry]

I hate to pile on but if my machine had arrived like that, it would have gone back. Something is not right. I suspect I may be over reacting, but the water stains that appear on the machine also appear to have a high mineral content based on the amount of spotting. I would not have wanted that water in my boilers, never mind on the machine.

On the sputtering question, yes my units sputters a good deal from the water spigot. Especially when the boiler has been on for 30 minutes or longer. I believe it is perfectly normal. Initially, I get more steam than water.

Barry

[TruthBrew]

I also get a lot of sputtering and steam from the water spigot, it's normal.

[Cameron Reddy]

I hate to pile on but if my machine had arrived like that, it would have gone back. Something is not right. I suspect I may be over reacting, but the water stains that appear on the machine also appear to have a high mineral content based on the amount of spotting. I would not have wanted that water in my boilers, never mind on the machine.

Barry

Frankly, I agree.

[Shutterman]

Well, Jon, I am especially interested to hear of your next step with Chris Coffee.

I was all set to pick up the phone today to finalize my order that I'd started with Mary for an S1 and grinder. While I thought there was probably a reasonable explanation for the water spots on your machine (although, I too don't think it looks like boiler leakage) your report of smoke-alarm noises coming from yours stopped me dead in my tracks.

Don't get me wrong, I know Chris runs a top notch organization and has a stellar reputation for ethical business practices and customer support, but I think it's easy to see why a report like this would be distrubing to someone who was just about to plunk down a couple of grand on an order.

As someone else postulated, there is the possibility that a returned machine made it out of Chris' door without him knowing about it. Mistakes do happen. From everything I've read about Chris' operation, I wouldn't think selling returned items as new is a normal practice...but it is something I'd like to have settled before I place my order.

I suppose the thing for me to do is simply give them a call or send them an email with a link to this thread...that is unless you have some late, breaking news?

On another note...as he mentions above in this thread, Al Sterling and I had a very pleasant conversation this weekend about grinders, the S1, photography, etc, etc. Considering our world today, it's really very, very nice that a "stranger" would pick up the phone and spend a good bit of time helping someone else out. Al...you're a great guy and I appreciate the offer to provide other information when I get my S1 in.

-Dean

[JonW]

Dean,

After looking at the pictures again today, it dawned on me that the front panel didn't have any of the spotting that the underside panel or group head showed. To me, this proves it did not happen in shipping as all the panels would have had the same spotting. It would be absurd for someone to knowingly send a machine out the door that looked like this, so I'm also willing to accept that maybe this one just slipped through.

I've just fully documented my issues with the high pitched noise and water spotting in a message to Chris (complete with mini videos to show/hear the problem). I've asked him to call me tomorrow (Tuesday) to discuss this. I have only dealt with him and Mary via e-mail but from the feedback I've seen on all the forums, I feel confident that this will be resolved. I know from my research on machines that my current experience has not been indicative of what others have experienced with this machine. In spite of my problems, I know this is a top notch machine and I'm willing to give another one a chance.

I also frequent a few car forums and I know as much as people love their cars and want them to be perfect, there will always be a few here and there that have more than their share of the problems. It's only natural to head to the forums (for the Internet savvy that is ) to vocalize their problems. There's usually 100 people that have no problems for every one you read about that have problems. I've been extremely lucky with cars and not had any of the horror stories that others tell. I know one bad machine doesn't mean that they're all bad and I'll work with Chris to get this situation resolved.

But....If it isn't resolved to my satisfaction - I'll be sure to let you all know!

Regards,
Jon


ps: yes, Al is a helpful guy, isn't he... :D

[Barry]

I have an enormous amount of respect for Chris and will buy my next machine from him (if I buy another machine). I have purchased two machines and two grinders from him and have always been very pleased with his service. Having said that, I remember getting my S1. The effort it would take UPS to turn the machine over is non trivial unless it some how fell. This is an even worse prospect. As others have said, those are spots, not water streaks. It does not add up. I am 100% confident that Chris will do whatever it takes to make the situation right if you do, in fact, have some type of problem.

Keep us informed,
Barry

[Shutterman]

Jon:

It sounds like you've taken a level-headed approach to the situation. You've carefully documented your concerns and have politely asked to have a conversation with the vendor. I have a high level of confidence that Chris will attempt to work things out to your satisfaction.

However, I'd still be curious to know if in fact yours was a previous customer return. It could be that vendors of this type of equipment consider anything returned to them within 30 days or so as still being new and they therefore sell them as such. Considering the cost of these things to say nothing of the cost of shipping, I could understand this point of view.

This same type of question comes up all the time on high-end photography equipment that I deal with. Everyone wants to know what becomes of the customer returns.

So, Jon...whatever you find out I'd be most appreciative if you'd pass it along.

Thanks,

Dean

[JonW]

Here's where I'm at so far....

Chris referred me over to Roger yesterday to work with him on the issues. I spoke with him yesterday afternoon while I was at work and he was truly apologetic about the way the machine looked and stated that there was no way it was used and that the spray must have been from the factory and they didn't catch it when they did their testing. I also confirmed my serial number with Al and we are only 6 sequential units apart. That tells me that it did arrive as one of the units in the latest shipment and most likely had not seen any action with another customer. I'm not happy that it was spotted like that, but after wiping it down with some ZEP, it looks just fine. It would be kind of like buying a new car, but it was up to you to go get the first car wash done. It just kind of took the excitement out of it.

The other issue I had was the high pitch noise during warm up. Roger felt it was the expansion valve that is right in front when you pull off the front cover. He stated that the noise problem I'm having was something they had on the unit they setup in their showroom and that turning the valve would fix it. He asked if I could give the valve a full turn counter clockwise. Since I was at work, I told him I would have to do it when I got home in the evening. Last night I did what he asked and I thought it helped a little, but this morning the noise was still there (but not as loud or long).

Just before leaving for work this morning, Roger sent me an e-mail to follow up and asked that I call him to discuss how things went. I called him from the car while I was on the road and told him it didn't stop and was still making the noise. He was perplexed as he was sure that was the problem. He then said I should go ahead and loosen it further to see if it would help - which is then when I realized that I didn't loosen it last night, I tightened it. When he said to turn it counter clockwise, I was taking that as referencing from my view (top) instead of from the valves view (bottom). So, what I did last night didn't do anything to help.
When I got home tonight I loosened the valve two turns and then turned the machine on and waited to see if the high-pitched smoke alarm sound was still there. Nope - it was gone!!! Not a peep from it.

I would not have expected an $1800 espresso machine to have problems out of the box, but I would rather tinker just a bit with it instead of boxing it up and sending it back. Their requests for adjustment are minor and it is much easier to do than boxing it up, sending it back and waiting for another one. Roger was definitely helpful and seemed genuinely concerned. He is quite knowledgable on these machines and knew right what the problem was. He also said that for my inconvenience they will be sending me out a little something to help make up for the problems.

I feel good about the way the machine is working tonight and I'll be doing my morning shots tomorrow to test it again before calling Roger back. I'm hopeful this is resolved now and I can move on to dialing in my S1 and JR grinder.

- JonW

[Shutterman]

Great news about solving the high pitched noise, Jon! Nice to know it was something simple.

As to the water spots...I can understand how something like water spots could go unoticed. I would imagine Roger is concentrating on making sure everything works, making sure that certain settings are correct, etc. He's probably not too concnerned with the esthetics of the piece of equipment he's working on.

From what I can gather, manufacturers in Italy aren't as conservative about quality control as we are here in the U.S. From bits and pieces I've gathered, it sounds like Chris has had to deal with more than a few issues related to quality control.

It appears Chris Coffee's great reputation for customer service is well deserved. Seems like they jumped right on the problem and were willing to stick with it until it was solved.

Thanks for posting back here and letting us know how things have so far turned out.

-Dean

[Barry]

This is good news indeed! A couple of other observations as a result of participating in this group for the last year:

1. It seems that most of us have had to do some small amount of tweaking to our machines to get them just right. Roger is a great guy and has helped many of us including me.

2. As far as Italian quality, can you say Alpha Romeo? Can you say live in mechanic? I have a friend with a $250K Ferrari...it spends 50% of the time in the shop (but it is a thing of beauty).

[Barry]

I believe I have figured out the cause of the spotting. Last night I hooked my pressure gauge equiped portafilter up to the group head. In the process of checking the pressure, water was sprayed in pattern almost identical to the photos you provided. My suspicion is that while being bench tested and calibrated, the same thing occured and someone may not have noticed or failed to wipe of the spray.

[Shutterman]

I feel confident that Jon's problems will be worked out (if they haven't already). Mary from Chris Coffee called me to assure me that if you buy a new S1 from them, it is a newly imported machine and NOT a customer return. She also said that they will do whatever it takes to make sure the customer is satisfied.

Based on her assertions and also from the progress Jon has had with his machine so far, I went ahead and placed my order for a new S1 and Macap M4 grinder today. I can hardly wait.

The only reason I'm jumping back in here on Jon's thread is that I had reported I'd held off completing my order when I heard about Jon's situation. I thought it was only fair to Chirs Coffee to report that my confidence is restored and they have and will continue to have my business. Chris truly does run a first class operation (of course...we all know that Mary really runs the show! )

-Dean

[hailseeszer]

I, too, received my S1 in May 2006 with the same spots along the same path, but not nearly as bad as noted with Jon's S1. I believe it was done during testing and the spots were all to the left of the group. I was able to scrub them off with Windex and a little elbow grease. I have not had any other issues other than the "normal" drip must of us have had at one time or another.

I totally support CC and believe it's an issue of housekeeping. It's sloppy housekeeping but something than can be worked out if highlighed by the customer. I believe Chris would jump on whoever is letting a machine pass looking like that.

My other issue was that the portafilters and were packed together in a box for shipping so the handles had some scratches and there was chrome knocked off on both of them.

[Grant]

Greetings. I just signed up for this forum. But I have been reading the forum for awhile as part of my background search for a new espresso machine.

My S1 from CC will arrive via UPS this Friday. :D

The S1 will be replacing my Giotto ECM which I have had for about five years. I will share with you a summary of the S1's arrival condition.

[Shutterman]

Mine arrived yesterday from CC and it is "spotless". Appears they are quite attentive to their customer's concerns.

I wish UPS, however, would have treated this machine with the same loving care as CC did. My boiler gauge was popped back in behind the splash panel (which I understand is not that uncommon) and the drip tray was jammed in cross-wise.

It was seriously wedged against the pump which caused it to be pushed backwards. In trying to undo it, I could see that I was causing the whole assembly...including the lines...to move. My hope is that this hasn't caused a fitting to sprout a leak or a line to become crimped. Guess I'll find out after I start using it.

-Dean

[TruthBrew]

Congrats to the new owners!

[Grant]

Greetings. I just signed up for this forum. But I have been reading the forum for awhile as part of my background search for a new espresso machine.

My S1 from CC will arrive via UPS this Friday. :D

The S1 will be replacing my Giotto ECM which I have had for about five years. I will share with you a summary of the S1's arrival condition.

My S1 arrived last Friday, along with the two stage water softener + filter kit from Chris Coffee. The S1 was packaged very nicely - double boxed with Styrofoam between the manufacturer's box and the external shipping box. The pressure gauge however was not centered in the face plate hole. It likely was jostled out of line during shipment. A tweak with my finger on the face of the gauge to reposition it, and all was well including nice and shiny. Got to hate the tamper included with the S1

[steve96822]

Got mine from sovrana and very happy, swivel steam wand was supplied free of charge. S1 shipped fast and arrived spotless. I believe the spotted pattern from chris is an additional charge, sort of akin to latte art.


in europe if the brakes do not squeak after a brake job, the owner may complain of a poor job. the noise is a way to know for sure the work was done.