Taking it to the next level

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boldstep

Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

So I am out in Santa Clara on business travel and stopped by Barefoot Roasters for an espresso. They were using their blend, The Boss. I tried it and it was gloriously good. I mean amazing with layers of taste that lasted long after I finished. It got me wondering: Why I don't have that level of goodness with my gear? I no longer consider myself a novice when it comes to my barista skills so I don't think it is that. I can control my shots very nicely. My grinder (macap doserless) and vivaldi II are both cleaned weekly. I clean and maintain my water filters/softening. So outside of all of that what is it that takes an espresso shot from good to out of this world espresso? Would it require a better grinder, a better machine? Any advice on this would be very much appreciated!!!! Thank you!
Endo

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by Endo »

Good, FRESH beans.
JohnB

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by JohnB »

Which Macap doserless? M4? I noticed a big improvement in my espresso when I moved up to an SJ from my M4 stepless. No more WDT required & better espresso. The move to a Major was more sideways but my recent purchase of a big conical has once agained improved the cup. I'd step up to the best grinder you can afford before you think about replacing the Vivaldi.
boldstep

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

Thanks!
I am fascinated that a grinder can have that big an impact -- is it just they provide a more even grind?
What type of big conical grinder do you have? By SJ you mean mazzer super jolly? I wonder how the mini doserless compares (I really don't want to deal with the hamper). Also, sorry what is "WDT"?
By the way what espresso machine are you using now?
Sorry, lots of questions....
JmanEspresso

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by JmanEspresso »

MAke no mistake, the M4 is a good grinder. No doubt about it.

But.. if you want professional level results, you need professional level gear.

The Vivaldi meets that quota.

You want to see the biggest possible change in your espresso?

Upgrade to a large conical burr grinder.


Conicals grind differently then flat burrs. It is a very geeky discussion. Over on Home-Barista, doing a Search for things like "Large Conicals".. or better yet "Fines Production" should yield some good results.

The fact of the matter is.. the Large Conicals produce the best, most consistent grind quality, without excessive fines. There is currently a bunch of great large conical grinders out on the market right now:
Macap MXK-$850ish
Macap M7K-$1200ish
Mazzer Kony-$1200-$1400
Mazzer Robur-$2400
Compak K10WBC-$1400
Elektra Nino-$2000ish

Now...

the Macap M7K, the Mazzer Robur, the Compak K10WBC, and the Elektra Nino.... ALL house the same size conical burrs. 68mm. They are all pretty much identical, with regards to in-the-cup results. Aside from obvious aesthetic differences.. main differences are Mazzer's Tank-Esque build quality, against the other guys. NONE of them are poorly built at all. HomeBarista has some direct comparison on all of them except the Nino, in the Titan Grinder Project. The Compak and MAcap are winners in the budget category, as you get robur results, for almost half the cost.

The Macap MXK, and the Mazzer Kony, are the only two 63mm Large Conicals out there.. These grinders are also superb, high end grinders, with results in the cup incredibly similar to the 68mm conicals. The Kony is said, BY SOME, to produce shots that lean toward the brighter side of things. Its has later been said that this difference in small at best, and not always agreed on.

So you might think.. why aren't the two Macaps the best ones to buy? Well.. With regards to the MXK.. Its the clear winner over the Kony. Macap is known to compete with mazzer in results, and have a lower price. Now.. NO ONE will tell you, EVER, that Macaps have bad build quality. They're well built machines. But Mazzer wins in the build quality department. Now.. with the M7K(the 68mm/robur-esque).. In the cup.. Its a clear winner. 1stLine only stocks the Stepped models(though, in the TGP, Jim Schulman noted the steps were close enough that it wasn't an issue, especially since adjustments are larger on conicals). Also, there is no Starting Capacitor, so first the first second or two when you turn it on, its not as smooth starting as the Robur or Compak or Nino.


Look.. ANY of the grinders listed above are phenomenal grinders. Truly some of the best out there. The differences between them all, is small.. Similar to differences between a Super Jolly and a Major. Well, in the cup differences that is. My personal faves from the list, is the MAcap MXKR, and the Compak K10. Always have been. The Macap is much cheaper then the Kony, and offers superb results for a wonderful price. The K10WBC is made by Compak, a company which has shown it is ready and willing to listen to what the consumer wants in a grinder, and make it happen. The Compak K10WBC, is the same as the K10Conic, except for some small, but important changes to the doser... Which Pro Baristi asked for.
oton

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by oton »

boldstep wrote:So I am out in Santa Clara on business travel and stopped by Barefoot Roasters for an espresso. They were using their blend, The Boss. I tried it and it was gloriously good. I mean amazing with layers of taste that lasted long after I finished. It got me wondering: Why I don't have that level of goodness with my gear? I no longer consider myself a novice when it comes to my barista skills so I don't think it is that. I can control my shots very nicely. My grinder (macap doserless) and vivaldi II are both cleaned weekly. I clean and maintain my water filters/softening. So outside of all of that what is it that takes an espresso shot from good to out of this world espresso? Would it require a better grinder, a better machine? Any advice on this would be very much appreciated!!!! Thank you!
Sorry about the question but I misunderstood something. Do you mean that you have tried "The Boss" blend with your gear and it tastes worse that the shot you had in Barefoot Roasters? Or do you use a different blend?

It could be the coffee, not the machine nor the grinder.
Endo

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by Endo »

oton wrote: Sorry about the question but I misunderstood something. Do you mean that you have tried "The Boss" blend with your gear and it tastes worse that the shot you had in Barefoot Roasters? Or do you use a different blend?

It could be the coffee, not the machine nor the grinder.
Exactly! Start with the $15 beans.

Or even cheaper....try grinding finer with a lighter 10lb tamp to get a 35 second extraction time. Does that technique change make a difference?

Why are people always recommending a $3000 Robur grinder as the solution to all problems (most of which can be solved for FREE). Makes me wonder if there are some grinder salesman lurking around these forums.

Grinders can make a difference, but on the other hand, the Titan grinder hype is probably the worst thing to hit espresso in the last 2 years. It's been a distraction from the biggest factor.....beans.
boldstep

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

First, thank you Jmanespresso for the informative write up on conical grinders! This is great info! BTW, I see JohnB has the K10WBC - one of the ones you listed.

Regarding The Boss: Yes, I've tried them at home, opening the bag anywhere from 3-7 days after it was roasted. In fact, I've ordered hundreds of pounds of beans from different roasters all over the states. The beans always come within a few days of the roast date. So I am assuming that is what Endo was considering as "Fresh beans"? Or by "fresh" do you mean only home roasted bean, which I've never tried/done.

The point of my question is this: with all of the beans I've used, I've made very competent sometimes amazing espressos. My average espresso at home is way better than the average espresso you get at restaurant or cafe.

BUT, if I were to compare the best espresso I've made to the best espresso I've tasted in an espresso house like Barefoot Roasters, they win hands down. And I've tried everything that I can think of to tweak out my system: 20-40s espressos, really short ristrettos, temperature changes, etc. The basic barista skills are there too: no channeling, warming shots, etc.

Again my espressos are quite good. I just notice an annoying gap between what is attainable by a coffee roaster/espresso house like Barefoot and myself and I was wondering Why?
JohnB

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by JohnB »

boldstep wrote:Thanks!
I am fascinated that a grinder can have that big an impact -- is it just they provide a more even grind?
What type of big conical grinder do you have? By SJ you mean mazzer super jolly? I wonder how the mini doserless compares (I really don't want to deal with the hamper). Also, sorry what is "WDT"?
By the way what espresso machine are you using now?
Sorry, lots of questions....

Never used the WDT?? Do a search on H-B for the details but basically it is stirring the grounds in the basket with a pin/needle/ect to break up clumps before tamping. Once I moved to the SJ this was no longer necessary.

Jeff covered the conical options in "Conical 101" but be advised that the prices listed on a website are there to keep the mfgr happy. Never buy without calling/emailing for their best price. Case in point the black Compak K10WBC I just bought is $1417. on most websites including Chris Coffee's. I called & asked for their best price & the $1400+ price dropped to $1217 shipped. As far as I can tell this is what they actually sell them for every day; i.e. the Street Price. From my research there is nothing even close to that price that compares to the K10 but others may disagree.

As to your questions: Forget the Mini doserless - overpriced & merely ok as espresso grinders go. You'd be better off buying a B, Vario for $400.

The SJ is the Super Jolly & it does have a doser (hamper?)

What have you got against dosers? The only mod I've done to the WBC is add a few strips of velcro to the bottom sweeper. The upper sweeper needed nothing & the doser is swept clean needing no brush work after dosing. Most electronic dosers seem grossly overpriced for what you get. They remove the doser, add an ugly spout & charge a small fortune for a circuit board & a couple of buttons. In return you usually end up with static & clumps. Just my opinion of course.
JohnB

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by JohnB »

boldstep wrote:The point of my question is this: with all of the beans I've used, I've made very competent sometimes amazing espressos. My average espresso at home is way better than the average espresso you get at restaurant or cafe.
Again my espressos are quite good. I just notice an annoying gap between what is attainable by a coffee roaster/espresso house like Barefoot and myself and I was wondering Why?
Skill certainly does come into play but good (really good) equipment does make a difference. The grinder IS key here if you want to step up to the next level. A used SJ or even better a Major would be an economical step up from your Macap but considering what you are looking for I'd recommend getting a good conical.
boldstep

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

Thanks again for all of the replies.
I am not against dosers in general. I just don't like dosers that waste beans and are difficult to clean. It sounds like the Mazzer Super Robur Electronic Doserless would be my ideal grinder but I would need to get a mortgage to afford it. :cry: What I am thinking is going to Chris' coffee to see all of their conical grinders first hand.
Endo

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by Endo »

Sounds like you've got the beans covered. Still, before you take out a grinder mortgage and build a bigger kitchen (or espresso bar :lol: ), have you tried different doses? 15g to 17g in 0.5g increments? How about different temperature? Different pressures? Have you tried settling the dose by tapping the PF? How about using nutation? It seems to work wonders on the Vivaldi for some weird reason.

After that, the grinder might be worth investigating. I'd say start with a demo of the Vario and move up from there. No use spending more money than you need.
boldstep

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

Good list of suggestions! The suggestions which I haven't tried and stand out are: pressure adjustments and nutation. I will give them a go. However, I've never adjusted the internal pressure of my unit (which seems to hover at 9 bar. Have folks experienced a difference by playing with this? How do you do it?

Also, why do you suggest the vario? That seems like another burr grinder (I have the macap m4 which I thought was pretty good as far as burr grinders go).
JohnB

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by JohnB »

Both the B. Vario & your Macap are flat burr grinders. The Vario uses ceramic burrs which seem to give it an edge over the competition in the $400-$650 price range. In most reviews the results in the cup compare favorably with what you'd get from a Super Jolly although I would think it would be slower then the SJ. The Vario is also more of a "do it all" grinder then your Macap as it can turn out a decent vac pot/drip/french press grind as well as a very good espresso grind. Of course there does seem to be some tweaking required if you want to switch from an ideal espresso grind to a nice coarse press grind. From what I've read I'd give the Vario the edge over your Macap but it wouldn't be the grinder I'd recommend if you want to see a marked improvement in your espresso & avoid future upgrades(grinder wise). For that I would be thinking conical but by all means play with your dose & brew pressure first to see if that helps. I wouldn't expect nutating to offer any eye opening changes but give it a try.

If you are currently pulling shots at 9 bar back off the adjustment screw on the pump so that your guage reads 8.5-8.75 bar and see what you think. Brew pressure adjustment is covered in detail in the Owner's Manual Chas put together.
Endo

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by Endo »

Can you post a video of a bottomless PF shot? Sometimes that will reveal a clue.
JmanEspresso

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by JmanEspresso »

While I agree that Fresh, High Quality Beans are very important, and without them, NO equipment in the world can even hope to produce anything but undrinkable swill...

Barefoot certainly fits in that category. So do many other roasters. Im not against home roasting, but it takes A LOT of effort and practice if you want your home roasts to match the quality of what you can get from the top-tier roasters. This doesnt mean home roasting can't produce some great coffee. A behmor or a Hottop can certainly produce some great coffee. But, you want results that mimic what you get in high end espresso bars? It aint happening with home roasted coffee for a long time. Roasting for espresso is tough.. much tougher then roasting for brewing. There is a whole lot more to it then just roasting to second crack.

While I think Home Roasting can be a lot of fun, and at times, very rewarding.. Your BEST beans will come from the top roasters in the country.


The Baratza Vario IS a great grinder. I love mine, does a great job. But, it simply isn't at the level of the large conicals. Pro results requires pro equipment. Like I said, the Vivaldi meets that need, the macap and the baratza do not. You'd need a large conical if you hope to produce what the espresso bars are producing.(Almost all of which, are using large conicals.. Lots of Roburs out there.. K10's too.)
Endo

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by Endo »

JmanEspresso wrote: You'd need a large conical if you hope to produce what the espresso bars are producing.(Almost all of which, are using large conicals.. Lots of Roburs out there.. K10's too.)
That's a generalization.

What's this photo? Anthony Benda #2 Barista in Canada along with Scott Rao (The Professional Bartista Handbook) operating twin planar grinders at Myriade in Montreal. (and yes...that's a Mirage espresso machine :shock: ). The other 2 top espresso bars in Montreal....Veritas and Cafe in Gamba.... also operate big planars..
Myriade
Myriade
100_1998.jpg (26.47 KiB) Viewed 19293 times
Last edited by Endo on Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
boldstep

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

Let's just remember that most of what we are taking about is just opinion anyway... :grin:

So.... I went back to Barefoot Roasters this morning (my business trip will leave me in Santa Clara for 1.5 weeks) to see what kind of grinders they use. Here's what they use:

Mazzer Rio -- not sure is this the Super Jolly?
Anfim milano

Does anyone know if these are conical or burr grinders? How do these compare to the macap m4?

Regarding adjusting the pressure: is there a write up on how to get to/find this screw?

Thanks!!!
boldstep

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

Endo wrote:Can you post a video of a bottomless PF shot? Sometimes that will reveal a clue.
Sorry, missed that. I can attach a video of my process and shot once I am home. Good idea
JohnB

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by JohnB »

Rio is just a badge name so the Mazzer could be either an SJ or more likely a Major. The Anfim is most likely the Super Caimano, Milano is where it is made. Both are flat burr grinders so Endo will be happy. :twisted:
Last edited by JohnB on Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
boldstep

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

Thanks JohnB.
Yes Endo should be pleased... :grin:
So what is the deal with burr size?? I see that as the biggest difference between the major and the SJ (amounting to a couple hundred dollars in list price). Is the argument that bigger is better :shock: and why?
Also, I am guess that lower rpms are better for heat? If so the anfem kicks butt with 1200 rpms compared to 1600 rpms for either mazzer...
boldstep

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

Btw, the Anfim Super Caimano is a serious burr grinder:

http://www.home-barista.com/grinders/fi ... t9489.html

I have to say, the poster's description of what he tasted out of the shot matches mine from Barefoot. It makes the flavors very distinct. I think this grinder might have some magic.
Endo

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by Endo »

Has anyone here ever pulled back to back shots on the Vivaldi with a large conical and a large planar? If so, I'd be interested to here the comparison. My experience is limited to trying them at different cafes (i.e. too many variables to make a fair comparison).
JohnB

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by JohnB »

boldstep wrote:Btw, the Anfim Super Caimano is a serious burr grinder:

http://www.home-barista.com/grinders/fi ... t9489.html

I have to say, the poster's description of what he tasted out of the shot matches mine from Barefoot. It makes the flavors very distinct. I think this grinder might have some magic.

The only magic involves how they get buyers to drop $1800 U.S. on one to use in their home. As far as what he tasted I can say the same for my K10WBC. You might say the same about a Major as compared to your Macap. The Super Caimano is a nice stepped,flat burr grinder but it's fiddly to use as the reviewer mentioned & it has a doser which you didn't want. If you can live with a doser try out the K10WBC at CC as it is a very nice stepless conical burr grinder that costs only $1217. delivered. If not I bet you could get the electronic doserless K10 from CC for a good deal less then the price of the Amfin.

What type of espresso do you enjoy most? Comfort food chocolate blends? Fruity S/O?
Endo

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by Endo »

JohnB wrote: The Super Caimano is a nice stepped,flat burr grinder but it's fiddly to use as the reviewer mentioned & it has a doser which you didn't want.
Gotta agree with you there. The doser has a cheap feel. The body is about as ugly as it gets too. But it does seem to produce the best shots (for rich Central and South American based blends at least).
JohnB

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:Has anyone here ever pulled back to back shots on the Vivaldi with a large conical and a large planar? If so, I'd be interested to here the comparison. My experience is limited to trying them at different cafes (i.e. too many variables to make a fair comparison).
No but I have on my Speedster. The Major gave me very nice, creamy chocolatey/berry shots with the Amaro Gayo but with the K10 the flavors were more distinct, the fruit more intense & flavorful as was the chocolate. Also depending on how I pulled the shot I could get flavors that just weren't noticable with the Major. Keep in mind that the K10 hasn't even hit its stride yet as the burrs are still seasoning with only 4lbs+ through it so far. I had planned to keep both grinders on the counter for a week or two comparing but after the first day I stopped using the Major.
boldstep

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

JohnB wrote:What type of espresso do you enjoy most? Comfort food chocolate blends? Fruity S/O?
I'd say chocolate blends but with some fruit tastes. The Boss blend I mention above is a good example of that. It has:
Ethiopia Amaro Gayo natural
Brazil Daterra Redcab
Ethiopian Dominion Vilones

Maybe I'll drop by CC with some bags of beans and see what the K10WBC can do. I think they have the Robur too, which seems to be the gold standard.
Endo

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by Endo »

If I remember, the theory goes; big planars produce a more mellow shot, small conicals are brighter and the big Robur is in between.

Kinda explains my prefence for big planars.
boldstep

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by boldstep »

UPDATE: Since getting home from the delicious coffee I had at Barefoot Roasters, I started playing around with some extraction parameters to see if I could do any better in terms of reproducing what I had tasted at the store. Surprisingly, I found a new setting which brings me much closer to the store (although there are some slight differences still). The settings are 35s and 0.75 ounces with 19g very tightly packed (using 93c for their Boss blend). These settings produced not only an espresso very close to the store but it worked miracles with a Black Cat-ish blend I have.

As a side point, I also find that I start to taste the espresso machine needs cleaning (using cafia) after only 1 bag of beans so I have a practice now of cleaning the unit between bags of beans. This practice seems to keep the taste focus on the bean, not the residual taste, if you know what I mean.

Just wanted to share in case this is useful info to anyone.
Endo

Re: Taking it to the next level

Post by Endo »

boldstep wrote: As a side point, I also find that I start to taste the espresso machine needs cleaning (using cafia) after only 1 bag of beans so I have a practice now of cleaning the unit between bags of beans. This practice seems to keep the taste focus on the bean, not the residual taste, if you know what I mean.
No. I can't really see that. Sounds like one of the those 1 deg F taste phantoms again. :lol:

The only place coffee would collect so that it would impacts taste, is on the screens, PF or side of the diffuser disc. I swap my disc and screens once a week and clean the PF, and that covers it fine. I do a chemical backflush for my 3-way valve once a month, but that's just to keep it clean and will have no effect on taste.
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