Basket Size and Taste

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Endo

Basket Size and Taste

Post by Endo »

I'm surprised there are not many discussions on this forum with regard to effect of the 53mm basket size on taste.

I've heard some people say the smaller and taller puck produces a "muddy" shot with less distinction in the flavors. Others have said they prefer the espresso from 53mm.

Since we have some members here who claim to have excellent palates, and since many have previously (or currently) owned 58mm machines, does anyone care to try and explain the difference in taste with basket diameter?
Niko

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by Niko »

I haven't noticed any difference. I had a QuickMill Anita for a while along with the 2 Vivaldis and my shots were pretty much dead on for consistency, only thing that changed the flavors for me were the temp changes. As far puckology goes the bigger 58mm have an advantage when the shots get bigger (like a large triple) - it gets way too deep for a 53mm to handle well beyond the 20g's. I think the 53 tops out at 20 grams with good results.
Endo

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by Endo »

I can't get much more than 16.5g in my double basket before the taste drops off. I'm starting to get more and more intetested in finding an elusive 53mm triple basket so I can try a 20g shot of Klatch! I wish La Spaz or Chris would start selling these! ($&^%(#*)&%% :evil: Man....wiith over 3000 machine sold, wha's stopping them????
JohnB

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JohnB »

I can't say if it's Kee's design work or the 58mm baskets but I'm definitely enjoying 17-19g doses much more now then I did with the Vivaldi. For me the S1 excelled in the 13-16g range but lost it with larger doses even with the triple basket. With the Speedster/58mm?? I get the same clarity no matter what the dose.

La Spaz designed the Vivaldi around classic Italian espresso doses & according to Chris has no interest in selling triple baskets. From the few times I used mine I'd have to say that the search for a triple basket was much more interesting then anything I ever got in the cup using it.

As to the 53mm basket producing muddy shots overall I don't buy it. Use the dose range the machine was designed for & you should be getting clarity in your cup. Try some good S/O espresso & use a 13-15g dose.
michael
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Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by michael »

i had some great clarity from my 20g shot of ecco SdB in a short latte this morning 8)
JohnB

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JohnB »

michael wrote:i had some great clarity from my 20g shot of ecco SdB in a short latte this morning 8)

Clarity in a milk drink? Interesting concept but not what I was thinking of. :grin:
oton

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by oton »

Endo wrote:I can't get much more than 16.5g in my double basket before the taste drops off. I'm starting to get more and more intetested in finding an elusive 53mm triple basket so I can try a 20g shot of Klatch! I wish La Spaz or Chris would start selling these! ($&^%(#*)&%% :evil: Man....wiith over 3000 machine sold, wha's stopping them????
You should see that La Spaz even don't sell naked PF's. Triple baskets and naked PFs seems to be a 3rd wave thing or an american thing -i'm not sure- which La Spaz clearly is not interested.
Niko

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by Niko »

It is an American thing :mrgreen:
I still drink from a bottomless PF even though spouted tastes better to me, it's not laziness - I just love watching the shot emerge from nothingness into a beautiful cup ;-)
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chas
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Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by chas »

oton wrote:
You should see that La Spaz even don't sell naked PF's. Triple baskets and naked PFs seems to be a 3rd wave thing or an american thing -i'm not sure- which La Spaz clearly is not interested.
At least it's not an issue with the necked PFs. They are pretty easy to find even if they are from 3rd party suppliers. The triple baskets, unfortunately, are apparently made from Unobtainium!
Chas
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oton

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by oton »

I'm a little annoyed with La Spaz 53mm PF choice. I'd like to try some +20 gr "designed" coffees. I need a triple basket and a triple double-spout portafilter. Is this possible? Hell, even Rancilio have this.

:protest: :protest: :protest:
Endo

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by Endo »

Triples are a bit of a novelty thing.

I had one on my 58mm Silvia and Anita, and while it does work well for 21g, it wasn't something I'd want too often.

Kinda like Eggnog. Tastes great once year but I wouldn't want to make it part of my daily routine. :santa:

Still, I wouldn't mine trying a triple basket on the S1. Too bad La Spaziale doesn't make one. Maybe if CC has 3000+ machines out there they might someday think of finding a non OEM supplier?

:wav:

(man...there's a smiley for everything!)
Niko

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by Niko »

I think they have at least 2,500 machines out there already :grin:
JmanEspresso

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JmanEspresso »

oton wrote:I'm a little annoyed with La Spaz 53mm PF choice. I'd like to try some +20 gr "designed" coffees. I need a triple basket and a triple double-spout portafilter. Is this possible? Hell, even Rancilio have this.

:protest: :protest: :protest:

What I have been experimenting with, is using a "Vivaldi Dose", with coffees that are suggested to be over 18grams, and adjusting the extraction ratio to yield a similar shot as one would get pull 20gram shots on a 58mm machine. In short, pull a bit tighter, and dont expect much more then 1.0-1.25oz from your shots. But, doing this, Im able to use Belle and the WBC from klatch, and what I taste mirrors..no, is quite close to, my notes on these blends when I used the Anita. Except, with the Vivaldi, its more consistent.
oton

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by oton »

So you are pulling a ristretto more than a normale... Well, is a workaround but in some cases I'd prefer a normale... or choose between a normale or a ristretto woud be ideal.

I've read this comment on CG from user Zin1953:
Just to be clear, "updosing" has nothing* to do with the size of the portafilter, and everything* to do with the group head and how much the room/headspace is above the puck.

For example, I can updose my 58mm La Valentina with relativce ease; I cannot do so with my 58mm Elektra.

*EDIT

Oh.. I see that you talked about this in "How many grams?" CG thread. :smile:

PS: Jman .. do you use the thick or the thinner block?
Endo

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by Endo »

oton wrote:
I've read this comment on CG from user Zin1953:
Just to be clear, "updosing" has nothing* to do with the size of the portafilter, and everything* to do with the group head and how much the room/headspace is above the puck.

For example, I can updose my 58mm La Valentina with relativce ease; I cannot do so with my 58mm Elektra.
This comment is obviously not true. I think he's trying to make the point that headspace is an important fact (which I agree) , but obviously you will get a different taste if there is more or less coffee below the same headspace.

I found a couple of tricks to increase dose:

As you say, the thinner brass dispersion disc gives you more space. But, this is already the one installed by Chris Coffee, so swapping to the thicker La Spaziale one will just make it worse.

You can remove the outer screen and get a bit of extra space. But this won't do much.

You can hammer out the ridge in the double basket. This will make make the basket a bit longer.

You can use the triple basket and easily increase headspace to whatever you want. Every try dropping one of the head screens in the bottom of the triple basket? Fun experiment!

You can use more dense coffee. I find the volume can change by up to a gram for the same volume depending on the blend.
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chas
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Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by chas »

I think the non-US, non-Chris Coffee machines MAY still use the thicker disk. The sure way to tell which you have is by the pattern of the holes in the dispersion disk, If they're in a star pattern, you have the thick dispersion disk. If the holes are arranged in a circle, you have the thinner disk.

If you need a visual, check out the photos at the bottom of this web page:

s1v1/index.php
Chas
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Endo

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by Endo »

chas wrote:I think the non-US, non-Chris Coffee machines MAY still use the thicker disk.
My 2009 non-US Mini Vivaldi came with the thicker star dispersion disk. I bought a thinner one from CC to go with my spare screen set. Makes cleaning swaps faster. Can't say I noticed much difference. I think I can dose a little more (less than 1g I'd say), but it ain't much for sure.
JmanEspresso

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JmanEspresso »

Updosing by itself, doesn't have anything to do with the diameter of the portafilter basket. Updosing to a certain amount however, does.

Just the idea of updosing, has to do with the baskets capacity, and the amount of headspace a machine "likes".

As Jason noted, the Elektra groups, as well as the Bezzera and Vivaldi groups, like ample headspace, as compared to an E-61 or La Marzocco/LM Style group. You can almost smash the coffee right up against the shower screen on a La Marzocco... Schomer is usually credited with this style of dosing.
Endo

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by Endo »

E-61 comes with a 1/2 inch of space between the screen and dispersion screw. With the S1, Bezzera and Elektra the screens sit right on top of a dispersion disk (no space).

Beyond this obvious fact, I'd like someone to explain how the air space above the coffee and the amout of coffee below it are related. I'm not saying they aren't, I'd just like a physical explanation.
oton

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by oton »

chas wrote:I think the non-US, non-Chris Coffee machines MAY still use the thicker disk. The sure way to tell which you have is by the pattern of the holes in the dispersion disk, If they're in a star pattern, you have the thick dispersion disk. If the holes are arranged in a circle, you have the thinner disk.

If you need a visual, check out the photos at the bottom of this web page:

s1v1/index.php
Oh, thanks Chas, but I already got one. My MiniV came with the thicker disk. I bought the thinner one from a UK shop. I think that the thinner disk forces you to increase all doses size of your shots, or put in another away, to not use 14gr doses; the puck fisnish very soaky, with water above it. I imagine it's because there is too much space between the coffee bed and the shower...
JohnB

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JohnB »

I pulled lots & lots of excellent 14g shots with my S1 with the thin disc. Who cares if the puck is soupy as long as the shot tastes good?
JmanEspresso

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JmanEspresso »

Oh I have had many a "puck soup", and my knockbox has looked like a empty presspot at times.. BUT, who cares?

Last couple days, Ive been running 18gram shots, with great results. One of the double baskets I have is bigger then the other two, and 18gr still doesn cover the ridge(its right at the ridge though). I never really put a whole lot of effort forward trying higher doses, because the general consensus is that the VII does better with lower doses, but the other day I figured I should give it a go. So, I did. Results surprised me! Quite delicous tasting shots, much thicker then what I was getting(obviously), and that classic rich "updosed triple" mouthfeel/taste. Not saying its the only way to go, but Im having good results, espresso tastes good, so, Im happy.

On the subject of pucks.. even when I dose high enough that I end up with a dry puck, when I knock it out, it has not once since I owned it, been solid. Always, ALWAYS splits in two, leaving a ring of coffee in the basket. WEIRD. Is this SOP, or do you fellas have solid pucks when you're dosing in that realm?
JohnB

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JohnB »

JmanEspresso wrote:Last couple days, Ive been running 18gram shots, with great results. One of the double baskets I have is bigger then the other two, and 18gr still doesn cover the ridge(its right at the ridge though).
Why don't you use the DC triple basket for the updose shots??
oton

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by oton »

JohnB wrote:I pulled lots & lots of excellent 14g shots with my S1 with the thin disc. Who cares if the puck is soupy as long as the shot tastes good?
I understand what you say... but I think that if a machine it's designed with certain specs (the thicker disk) to meet 14gr shoots, change that and increase puck-disk space must affect the shot in somehow.
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Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by sakurama »

I have an original triple from Chas and our of curiosity and because I had a handful of doubles I never use I decided to cut one of my spouted portafilter holders in the lathe to open it up to allow for a deeper "true" triple and then I cut apart several baskets and welded one together that is about 3mm or so larger than the original triple. I'm still experimenting with this but the ristrettos I'm getting are really deep and amazing. I'm having to increase the preinfusion to 6 seconds. I don't have an accurate enough scale right now to tell you what the actual dose is and that's on my to do list. I did it because I needed to spend a day at the shop and I enjoy machining small projects.

I can make these but I don't know if anyone would want to pay for it since it's very time consuming and would require a custom modified bottomless to allow for the depth of the triple. I'll create a separate post if it seems people might be interested.

Here's my new triple on the left and my old triple on the right. You can see the holder is wider to accommodate the new deeper filter.
Image

This is my new triple, my old original triple and an original double.
Image
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BobUSN

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by BobUSN »

Gregor,

Nice pix.
oton

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by oton »

sakurama wrote:great triple baskets.
Oh, I wanna. :bounce:

But first I'd like to know what basket brands fits into LaSpaz PF's? Nuova SImonelli? La San Marco? Anyway, is strictly necessary modify the PF, right?
JmanEspresso

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JmanEspresso »

JohnB wrote:
JmanEspresso wrote:Last couple days, Ive been running 18gram shots, with great results. One of the double baskets I have is bigger then the other two, and 18gr still doesn cover the ridge(its right at the ridge though).
Why don't you use the DC triple basket for the updose shots??
Honestly? My double baskets were on the cup warmer, and the triple basket was in the drawer :-P


But, since you asked, I thought Id check it out. Using the DC triple and 18grs, there is a little more headspace, enough that I was able to fit 20gr(of the coffee I was using, Im sure I could do 21 with a different bean)up to the ridge. So I pulled a couple 18gr shots in the large double basket Ive got, and the DC triple. No difference. Which actually surprised me, I thought with a bit more headspace, the shot might open up a bit, but it didn't. But Im fully ready to believe that it is the coffee I was using(Paradise's Nuevo)... Ive got some Belle on the way, a coffee I know, VERY WELL, so I'll try it again when it gets her(possibly today, probably thursday). Ive also got some BC classic and organic on the way, and those both did well being updosed on the Anita, so.... (I ordered these coffees BECAUSE I was having good results at 18grams in the double, and these do well when updosed. Im quite excited to try the belle again, I havent had it since the first week with the Vivaldi, and it was already on its way out the day I was at your house)


However. . . I cant use my spouted PF with the triple basket. I can with the larger double basket. And, when it comes to day-to-day shots, Im a single spout kinda guy. I removed the stock single spout from the La Spaz PF, and put my favorite single spout on, THIS one. IMO, a much nicer spout.
JohnB

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JohnB »

I suppose I'll have to try the stock spouted p/fs one of these days. I may have used the Vivaldi's once or twice tops. I converted one of the Speedster's into a pressure gauge set up & put the blind basket in the other. Since I am manually pre infusing being able to see the underside of the basket is important. Also I do enjoy watching the show especially now that I have a bench right in front of the coffee bar. No more squatting down to view the underside of the p/f. :lol:
JmanEspresso

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JmanEspresso »

Try the single spout. I really am not a fan of double spouts, and the one Kees uses, I despise the most(Its the one which comes on Synesso's, E-61s.. it has the little "cover" over the spouts??). The La Marzocco double spout(the "square" on, looks kinda like the La Spaz double spout), is OK, I suppose.

But the single spout, IMO, is the way to go.

I use the bottomless to dial in a coffee, so I know when/how it is beading, and because when Im dialing in, I can not only see right away if the grind is off, I know where to fix any distribution problems. But, once I get it dialed in, I switch to the single spouted PF. I think the espresso tastes better... its like a smoother, silkier crema. YMMV.
Endo

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by Endo »

JmanEspresso wrote: But, once I get it dialed in, I switch to the single spouted PF. I think the espresso tastes better... its like a smoother, silkier crema. YMMV.
You can taste the difference when the espresso flows over 1 inch of chromed plated brass? Wow, you are good! :lol:
oton

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by oton »

:laughing6:

Perhaps I have to agree with Jman. Sometimes seems that the crema from the spouter is more silky and delicate. Not sure if it's because the spout "polish" the crema (like when you move the pitcher to polish the milk), or because there is less drop from the PF to the cup and it avoids to create big bubbles. (or the two :mrgreen:)
Endo

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by Endo »

Well if you are both seeing a difference, then I'll give it another try (if I can find it). :lol: I haven't used my single spout in a while. Besides, seems from the Scace I could use all the thermal mass I can get.
coffeeowl

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by coffeeowl »

sakurama wrote:I can make these but I don't know if anyone would want to pay for it since it's very time consuming and would require a custom modified bottomless to allow for the depth of the triple.
I'd like a normal triple, I have normal naked pf. Will you be interested to make?
JohnB

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JohnB »

JmanEspresso wrote:Try the single spout. I really am not a fan of double spouts, and the one Kees uses, I despise the most(Its the one which comes on Synesso's, E-61s.. it has the little "cover" over the spouts??). .
Nope, no cover over the spouts on Kee's double. Just an open U shaped spout with sort of squared off sides.
JohnB

Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by JohnB »

sakurama wrote: Here's my new triple on the left and my old triple on the right. You can see the holder is wider to accommodate the new deeper filter.
Nice work on the new basket. Looks to be about the same depth as the DC triple judging by your p/f pic.
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sakurama
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Re: Basket Size and Taste

Post by sakurama »

Yeah, I wondered if that might be the case. I tried to find some DC triples and there are none to be found so I made it. When I get back I'll look into making more and see what would be involved.
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