Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

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Endo

Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

I couldn't find a topic on this, so please excuse me if it has already been discussed.

I find the VIvaldi is very sensitive to grind adjustment. A lot more so than other machines. A one notch adjustment on my Mazzer can mean the difference of up to 5 seconds or more in shot time.

Is this because of the 53mm basket and therefore thicker puck? Any other guesses?
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

1 notch on the SJ is a big jump for Espresso so the 5 seconds doesn't surprise me. The S1V2 is the only machine I have any long term experience with as I only owned the Vetrano for 2 weeks.
Mizspresso

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Mizspresso »

Endo
I've found the same thing with my Vivaldi. I have the M4 stepless and find I have to change adjustments slightly over time as well, as the coffee ages (Fresh from the freezer/vac pack -vs- a week later).

Minor adjustments to the grinder have meant dramatic changes in shot times. Sometimes one tick mark difference can mean a 5 sec difference in the shot. My first grinder was a Rocky and it wasn't so apparent. Probably because the steps were so much bigger than the adjustments with the worm drive.

-Barbara
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

I am very happy with the S1/SuperJolly combination. Your problem is that you don't know what to expect. A full, one-notch change is huge. You dial this grinder in with less than 1/2 notch changes, always approaching the proper setting from the same direction of rotation. It takes firm pressure and two hands. When I clean my grinder, I always put a light coat of Tri-Flo lock lube on the adjustment ring threads; this may not be recommended - I really don't know or care - I just do it. It makes the movement of the ring smoother for making really small, repeatable adjustments. I think this is your problem, one of knowing what to expect. You will learn how to make these adjustments with a bit of practice, and you will be fine.

I make major changes to the grind setting every day, because I use one grinder for both espresso and press/vacuum pot coffee and because I normally have several different coffees going at any one time, including decaf, which can be a bitch. I used to have a Mazzer Mini and used it the same way.

As long as I take care to remember exactly where I last had the SJ set for espresso, I can dial it back and never waste a shot. But I have to dial it back to exactly where my mind's eye tells me where it was before. I could *never* get this kind of repeatability with the Mini, no matter how exact I was in repeating the setting. When I upgraded from the Mini to the SJ I was looking for better coffee flavor (and I got it). The amazing repeatability/consistency when going back and forth in grind settings was an unanticipated benefit, and I think is remarkable for a grinder that isn't much more costly than the Mini.

I have both a V1 and a V2. I have the pre-infusion chamber on the V1 and programmable pre-infusion on the V2 (both work, and for no apparent reason I seem to prefer the chamber). Given the SJ, as well as the use of a repeatable process for distribution and tamp of the puck, as well as the use of a repeatable method of conditioning the temperature of the brewhead (two, 2-oz blank shots prior to first shot - I have the single shot button programmed for blank shots - with appropriate time between for the lights to stop blinking), I find no undue sensitivity at all. Just the opposite. I find the combination to be highly predictable.

There is no doubt in my mind that S1/SJ will not produce espresso of the same quality - and probably consistency and predictability, for all I know - as a Synesso/Kony combination, because I have experienced that combination and it is great. So if something like that is your frame of reference, throw out what I have said. However, as a price/performer combination, I think the S1/SJ is great for home use. I am now going on three years of experience with the S1, with wonderful coffee and virtually no problems. I am reminded of the old saying: When you buy quality, it only hurts once. And I am not even sure that the improvement of the Synesso/Kony combination is the result of *both* of the machines: it would be nice to taste the coffee from an S1/Kony combination sometime.

BillK
Last edited by BillK on Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

I owned (in order), Braun whirly blade grinder, Zassenhaus hand grinder, Solis 166, Rancilio Rocky, Mazzer Mini and Mazzer Superjolly.

While the SJ grinds the best (of course), I found the taste difference by upgrading got less and less as I paid more. I found the smallest difference to be between the Mazzer Mini and Mazzer SJ. (I know this goes against the "bigger is better" claims of the Titan grinder crowd). So maybe it was just my particular grinders.

You didn't mention your expereince with grind sensitivity before pre-infusion. I don't have this yet, and I'm starting to suspect (and hope) this is why I'm having consistancy problems. It definitely doesn't compare to the consistancy I was getting with my E-61 and actually seems a little worse than what I was getting with my PID'd Silvia (yikes!).

Me thinks, the pre-infusion chamber will be coming soon.
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:
You didn't mention your expereince with grind sensitivity before pre-infusion. I don't have this yet, and I'm starting to suspect (and hope) this is why I'm having consistancy problems. It definitely doesn't compare to the consistancy I was getting with my E-61 and actually seems a little worse than what I was getting with my PID'd Silvia (yikes!).

Me thinks, the pre-infusion chamber will be coming soon.
Maybe the p/i in your E61 allowed you to get lazy?? P/I definitely makes it easier to get nice pours but with good technique you should be able to get the same results without it. I used my S1 with an M4 for 7 months without p/i & with practice was able to get nice pours on a regular basis. Since the S1 was my first machine (not counting 2 weeks w/Vetrano) there was a definite learning curve but I didn't see much of a change in my pours after adding the p/i. I did notice an improvement in the cup with the SJ upgrade. You've got a great machine & an excellent grinder so I'd say its your technique that needs some improvement.
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

I'm getting so desperate I'm seriously considering WDT..... :lol: :lol: (Sorry, couldn't resist).

I'll keep changing things up in terms of dosing and grinding and see if I can make any more improvments. (Damn that naked PF, things were great until that arrived).

Thanks for the feedback on the p/i. I'm going to order it anyway since I'm curious to see what it does.
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

Endo wrote:
You didn't mention your expereince with grind sensitivity before pre-infusion. I don't have this yet, and I'm starting to suspect (and hope) this is why I'm having consistancy problems. It definitely doesn't compare to the consistancy I was getting with my E-61 and actually seems a little worse than what I was getting with my PID'd Silvia (yikes!).

Me thinks, the pre-infusion chamber will be coming soon.

Grind sensitivity was not an issue for me prior to pre-infusion, so my experience is just like John's. I think you are going to be disappointed if you make an expenditure on PI in expectation that it will solve the problem. PI gives more consistent shots, but it does this within a given setting of my grinder and the effects are subtle.

Maybe it is something with your technique, as John says. You might have distribution or clumping or other issues, which can create problems. To create a point of reference, you might consider dosing into the basket with a nice mound of grinds overflowing. Then take an opened paper clip or something of similar shape and stir the grinds. Then scrape off the excess with a straight edge. No other action, such as "settling" the grinds. Nothing. Then tamp. If you will do this, you should have removed all variables except the tamp and you should have a pretty good puck. Not what I would recommend for a long term technique because it is slower, but it creates uniformity/consistency in the puck, in my experience. Using this technique and remembering to flush up if your brewhead is cool, you should get prediciabilty from the equipment combination you have. I don't know anything about your current technique, so I hope I am not insulting you. If this does not do it, then maybe we needs to more specifically define terms.

BillK
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

Thanks for the suggestions. All are good.

I'm going to clean the SJ with Grindz tonight, soak all screens and diffuser in Cafiza then do a chemical backflush. This should reset everything. I'll then remove my PF spring and use only the basket (so I can pay extra time and attention to my technique).

I suspect it may be possible to get better results by a combination of using a finer grind, lower tamping pressure and increasing headspace (lower dose). It's just getting the right combination of all these variables that is the tricky part. I go through this "relearning" with all new machines I try. They all seem to require something a little different.

I'll do a WDT for good luck as well (although with my dosered SJ, clumping has never been an issue). Although the low winter humidity is causing some changes.

Too late about the p/i. I bought it this morning and it should arrive in a week. Seems like a good feature to have. Besides, I was in need of another toy.

Now I need to read up on the progressive p/i off-switch someone suggested.
fiddlefly

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by fiddlefly »

I was having very disappointing shots for the first week, I even posted about thisbut now its fine and I think I understood my machine...
As you mentionned earlier, The V1 and V1mini are different animals but I figure extraction is pretty similar...
So I'll tell you about my experience: I do not do any WDT never have and do not want to, I got my naked pf this week and things are lookin good. The naked pf helped me understand how much finer I could grind and what to do with my tamp. I go a bit above choking but not much... as far as dosing and distribution, I rotate the pf under the mouth of the doser until there is a mound (not a mountain) press it across in 3 places with 1 finger and use that same finger to level N S E W (grossly). By that time not much is dumped off. After i tap the pf on the counter, do a light 5 pound and nutation, tap with the tamper and tamp a full Espro 30 pounds nutation and polishing. Lock and shoot! and it is usually good. It is constant that way, until I need to readjust the grind and sometimes I screw the puck when I lock it in and then I have to start again. As far as I am concerned, I think my main problem was dosing too much and therefore, damaging the puck prior to infusion. Have you checke that :?:
Anyhoo I hope it helps a little bit :grin:
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

fiddlefly wrote: I think my main problem was dosing too much and therefore, damaging the puck prior to infusion. Have you checke that :?:
Good point. That's why for my next round, I will try smaller 15g doses. If that works, I'm afraid I may need to buy the slightly thinner 11mm diffuser disk to get back to my 17g and still have the necessary headspace.
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

BillK wrote:There is no doubt in my mind that S1/SJ will not produce espresso of the same quality - and probably consistency and predictability, for all I know - as a Synesso/Kony combination, because I have experienced that combination and it is great. So if something like that is your frame of reference, throw out what I have said. However, as a price/performer combination, I think the S1/SJ is great for home use. I am now going on three years of experience with the S1, with wonderful coffee and virtually no problems. I am reminded of the old saying: When you buy quality, it only hurts once. And I am not even sure that the improvement of the Synesso/Kony combination is the result of *both* of the machines: it would be nice to taste the coffee from an S1/Kony combination sometime
My previous grinder was a SJ, and I agree with all the nice things you've said about it. I'm fairly sure the pour from a Kony would taste brighter, but not necessarily better. This is based on my experience with the Macap MXKR, a similar 63mm conical burr grinder that I tested in the H-B TGP. You might or might not prefer the taste profile to the SJ. (I did not.) Large conical burr grinders do tend to be more forgiving, easier to dial in, with a larger sweet spot for grind adjustment, when compared to their flat burr cousins.

BTW, the S1/Robur combo is terrific. :grin:
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

RapidCoffee wrote: BTW, the S1/Robur combo is terrific. :grin:
Can't beat that setup. (Robur-envy).

Actually, I own two conicals....OK, one is a Solis 166 the other is my Zass 175M...does it still count? ;-)
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Let's face it, the Robur is insane for home use. It's a perfect example of how limitless this obsession, ahem, I mean passion, can get.

OTOH, it has cured grinder upgraditis... at least for the present. :twisted:
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

You were buying that about the same time I was reading the ad on CG & wondering how I could explain a $1200 grinder to my wife after just buying the first SJ. That ad came & went faster then any ad I've seen on CG. Thanks for saving me $1200 & a few nights sleeping alone in my shop!
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Yep, it's Geoff Corey's Robur. He made me an offer I just couldn't refuse. A new Kony would have cost a lot more. (Amazing how the rationalizations start kicking in... :roll: )
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

Rapid City, S.D.

We normally pass through there a couple of times a year. We have stayed at Hojo's Express (new and really nice, believe it or not) and the Fairfield Inn off 94. Any good coffee houses nearby?

BillK
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

BillK wrote:Rapid City, S.D.
We normally pass through there a couple of times a year. We have stayed at Hojo's Express (new and really nice, believe it or not) and the Fairfield Inn off 94. Any good coffee houses nearby?
Sorry, I would have responded sooner, but I injured myself falling off my chair. :lol:

Nothing is really outstanding, most are typical (poor) for a small midwestern town. Bully's Blend (downtown on 5th St.) is probably the best of a bad lot. The owner knows how to pull a decent shot, they use coffee roasted on the premises, and guess what equipment they have? Yep, LaSpaz gear, including an S1.

You are welcome to stop by my house and pull some shots next time you pass through town. The Black Hills are a special place, and it's worth spending a couple of days here if you enjoy the outdoors. If you're looking for culture, just spend the night. :-(
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote:Yep, it's Geoff Corey's Robur. He made me an offer I just couldn't refuse. A new Kony would have cost a lot more. (Amazing how the rationalizations start kicking in... :roll: )
It didn't seem like a bad deal at $1200 but I take it you did much better then that as new Konys can be had for $1300.
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

JohnB wrote:It didn't seem like a bad deal at $1200 but I take it you did much better then that as new Konys can be had for $1300.
Well, I did slightly better. New Konys are priced at $1400 and up here in the states. Cost of the Robur plus my used S1V1 was less than the cost of a new S1V2. Bottom line: money well spent. :grin:
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote: Well, I did slightly better. New Konys are priced at $1400 and up here in the states. Cost of the Robur plus my used S1V1 was less than the cost of a new S1V2. Bottom line: money well spent. :grin:
http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/categor ... type=store
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

GIven the S1 produces a "sweeter" shot, do you think a Conical (like a Robur) or a big Planar (like a Anfim Super Caimano) would be the best match?
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

RapidCoffee wrote:
BillK wrote:Rapid City, S.D.
We normally pass through there a couple of times a year. We have stayed at Hojo's Express (new and really nice, believe it or not) and the Fairfield Inn off 94. Any good coffee houses nearby?
Sorry, I would have responded sooner, but I injured myself falling off my chair. :lol:
Nothing serious, I hope. And I certainly hope you didn't spill your coffee.

Thanks for the info.

We do the Black Hills! We have a scenic route that we take from AZ to MN whenever Colorado Rockies weather permits. Get a load of this:

The Painted Desert
Monument Valley
North from Monument Valley to Moab UT, which is as spectacular as driving through Monument Valley
Moab, where we do side trips to Arches and Canyonlands N.P.
Moab-to-I80 along the Colorado River, which nobody seems to know about, which is incredible red rock all the way, every bit as good as Zion in our view.
Colorado Rockies via Grand Junction, Glenwood Springs, Vale, Frisco, Eisenhower Pass, etc. and down into Denver
North from Laramie through Black Hills to your fair city - Needles Hwy, Silvan Lake, Crazy Horse Monument, MR, Deadwood, etc., different routes
(Coffee at Wall Drug, now and then, worth exactly what we pay for it, ha ha.)
The Badlands, now and then.

How about that for your basic, four day (w/o side trips) driving trip?!

The coffee is terrible all the way, but hang the coffee, we are blessed to be able to enjoy these Southwest and West scenic wonders.

BillK
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

BillK wrote:We do the Black Hills! We have a scenic route that we take from AZ to MN whenever Colorado Rockies weather permits. Get a load of this:
...
How about that for your basic, four day (w/o side trips) driving trip?!
Great itinerary, lots of great places packed into four days! I love the desert southwest. Utah in particular is spectacularly beautiful. The entire state is like one huge park.
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:GIven the S1 produces a "sweeter" shot, do you think a Conical (like a Robur) or a big Planar (like a Anfim Super Caimano) would be the best match?
I've only used my S1 with the Robur (sold my SJ shortly before getting the S1 up and running). This may soon change. I've got another flat burr monster en route. (No, don't ask. :roll:) I've never used an Anfim, although there's a lot of good buzz surrounding the SC.

General impressions from the TGP, echoed by all involved: large conical burr grinders do not necessarily produce a better cup, but they are more forgiving of grind setting than flat burr grinders. Hybrids like the Cimbali Max and VersaLab M3 also fall into this category. But hey, any commercial grinder should be capable of true excellence. That includes flat burr grinders like the Anfim and the SJ.

Sorry to be so helpful. :lol:
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

RapidCoffee wrote:
BillK wrote:We do the Black Hills! We have a scenic route that we take from AZ to MN whenever Colorado Rockies weather permits. Get a load of this:
...
How about that for your basic, four day (w/o side trips) driving trip?!
Great itinerary, lots of great places packed into four days! I love the desert southwest. Utah in particular is spectacularly beautiful. The entire state is like one huge park.
I could not agree more. We are partial to Arizona, which is full of spectacular scenery, and we have seen all of the West and Southwest, but from top to bottom Utah is definitely our favorite in terms of natural beauty. As you say, it is like one, huge park. I am originally from the northwoods of Wisconsin and, after living in the huge vistas of the Southwest, I get claustrophobic when I get back to forests and lakes to visit. I just want to get away after a few days. My wife has gotten to be the same way. Even some of the less scenic parts out here, such as while driving along I-10 from PHX to LA, or down through Yuma and on to the coast, have these vast expanses of open desert that many people think are boring, but the size of it all just blows us away.

BillK
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

JohnB wrote:
RapidCoffee wrote: Well, I did slightly better. New Konys are priced at $1400 and up here in the states. Cost of the Robur plus my used S1V1 was less than the cost of a new S1V2. Bottom line: money well spent. :grin:
http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/categor ... type=store
Oops, missed that! And Jim at 1st-line was the primary TGP sponsor... :oops: IIRC, the TGP Kony ended up with the author of the Espresso! My Espresso! website. Another TGP evaluator had intended to buy it, then changed his mind after the review.

The other grinder under serious consideration was a lightly used Compak K10WBC, advertised on CG for about the same price as the used Robur (and possibly still for sale?). It would have been the more sane choice.
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

BillK wrote: I could not agree more. We are partial to Arizona, which is full of spectacular scenery, and we have seen all of the West and Southwest, but from top to bottom Utah is definitely our favorite in terms of natural beauty. As you say, it is like one, huge park. I am originally from the northwoods of Wisconsin and, after living in the huge vistas of the Southwest, I get claustrophobic when I get back to forests and lakes to visit. I just want to get away after a few days. My wife has gotten to be the same way. Even some of the less scenic parts out here, such as while driving along I-10 from PHX to LA, or down through Yuma and on to the coast, have these vast expanses of open desert that many people think are boring, but the size of it all just blows us away.

BillK
My wife & I love traveling through the western U.S. but after a couple of weeks I've got to see some green! We get out there every couple years on our motorcycles for a 3-4 week tour & I always enjoy the high desert areas. Lots & lots of breathtaking scenery but my wife's gardening hobby & my love of kayaking, green trees & fields will probably keep us from moving out there.
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote: The other grinder under serious consideration was a lightly used Compak K10WBC, advertised on CG for about the same price as the used Robur (and possibly still for sale?). It would have been the more sane choice.
If you are going to spend that much on a grinder it should be big! I'd take the Robur anyday just because I like the build quality of the Mazzers.
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

JohnB wrote:I'd take the Robur anyday just because I like the build quality of the Mazzers.
I agree. I haven't seen any grinder with the build quality of the Mazzers. I was considering the Cimbali Max Hybrid. It seemed like a good choice for grind quality, but the build quality seemed suprisingly cheap. I ran back to Mazzer.

I like the look of the Compak K10WBC. But I have never seen one up close. Grinders are things you definitely need to "try before you buy".
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Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by chas »

RapidCoffee wrote: Oops, missed that! And Jim at 1st-line was the primary TGP sponsor... :oops: IIRC, the TGP Kony ended up with the author of the Espresso! My Espresso! website. Another TGP evaluator had intended to buy it, then changed his mind after the review.
Randy's come a long way since his Sylvia/Rocky days, but then I guess we all have!
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

JohnB wrote:
BillK wrote: I could not agree more. We are partial to Arizona, which is full of spectacular scenery, and we have seen all of the West and Southwest, but from top to bottom Utah is definitely our favorite in terms of natural beauty. As you say, it is like one, huge park. I am originally from the northwoods of Wisconsin and, after living in the huge vistas of the Southwest, I get claustrophobic when I get back to forests and lakes to visit. I just want to get away after a few days. My wife has gotten to be the same way. Even some of the less scenic parts out here, such as while driving along I-10 from PHX to LA, or down through Yuma and on to the coast, have these vast expanses of open desert that many people think are boring, but the size of it all just blows us away.

BillK
My wife & I love traveling through the western U.S. but after a couple of weeks I've got to see some green! We get out there every couple years on our motorcycles for a 3-4 week tour & I always enjoy the high desert areas. Lots & lots of breathtaking scenery but my wife's gardening hobby & my love of kayaking, green trees & fields will probably keep us from moving out there.
Yup. Our antidote to this condition is to spend three weeks in Minnesota every December. After this, the Southwest looks real green. :grin:

BillK
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

Endo wrote:
JohnB wrote:I'd take the Robur anyday just because I like the build quality of the Mazzers.
I agree. I haven't seen any grinder with the build quality of the Mazzers. I was considering the Cimbali Max Hybrid. It seemed like a good choice for grind quality, but the build quality seemed suprisingly cheap. I ran back to Mazzer.

I like the look of the Compak K10WBC. But I have never seen one up close. Grinders are things you definitely need to "try before you buy".
I like the build quality of the Mazzers a lot. They are industrial strength and completely trouble free in my experience, and the espresso grind is great, and the stability/repeatiblity of the SJ is outstanding. The SJ leaves something to be desired for press and vacuum pot coffee, as the size of the particles is uneven. And the size is too big for my wife (and I can sympathize). There was going to be a "Vario" grinder that would be the end-all for home users like me, and I was interested, but when I checked 1st-Line it was not available - problems? I would love to have a smaller grinder that would do an outstanding job on espresso like the SJ, be small, and do a better job on coarse grinds. I would give up the heavy duty Mazzer build quality if there was such a grinder, because I don't grind a lot of coffee. But espresso quality is my #1 and #2 priority, so that the ante for me.

The other thing I am wondering about is if the SJ with duranium gears makes a brighter shot. I would try them if they made a brighter, cleaner shot. Everything I used to read was about the speed of grinding (don't need it) and the stalling problem (not sure I would care, unless it is extreme, because I am right there on top of my grinder at all times when it is turned on). Rapid, I remember that you (??) were reporting on these burs about a year ago on one of the message boards. What were your impressions about the shots? I don't recall much discussion about differnces in shot quality as the result of duranium burrs.

BillK
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

There sure is a lot of buzz about the Vario. It was delayed until late February due to some last minute changes (static reduction improvement apparently).

Sounds like it might be the perfect grinder for people looking for a small grinder than can do both espresso and drip at a reasonable price ($429 US). First impressions for espresso have been very good. The ceramic burrs sure look weird. I guess they must work.
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

BillK wrote: I like the build quality of the Mazzers a lot. They are industrial strength and completely trouble free in my experience, and the espresso grind is great, and the stability/repeatiblity of the SJ is outstanding. The SJ leaves something to be desired for press and vacuum pot coffee, as the size of the particles is uneven. And the size is too big for my wife (and I can sympathize).

The other thing I am wondering about is if the SJ with duranium gears makes a brighter shot. I would try them if they made a brighter, cleaner shot. Everything I used to read was about the speed of grinding (don't need it) and the stalling problem (not sure I would care, unless it is extreme, because I am right there on top of my grinder at all times when it is turned on). Rapid, I remember that you (??) were reporting on these burs about a year ago on one of the message boards. What were your impressions about the shots? I don't recall much discussion about differnces in shot quality as the result of duranium burrs.

BillK
I use my late model SJ with doser & Duranium burrs strictly for espresso, my KA Pro for press pot & my older doserless SJ will be my Vacuum Pot/decaf espresso grinder as soon as my new V/Ps arrive. The older SJ does a decent job in the drip range so if the vac pot grind is finer I think it should be fine.

As far as the Duranium burrs & brightness goes all I can say at this point is that they grind faster. I could do a back to back comparison with my 2 SJs but I haven't heard anything about them changing the cup. I have had no stalling issues with them in my newer SJ so maybe its only an issue with the older model if indeed its true that the newer style has a stronger motor.
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

Duranium? What is that anyway? A google search says it's used to make the hull of a ship on Star Trek.

I'll wait for the official Mazzer burrs (just released actually) with a "real", proven TiN coating (ceramic) and a tooth pattern that won't stall my SJ motor.
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

I enjoyed the Duranium (whatever that may be) burrs on my SJ, but did experience occasional stalling, especially during the first few weeks. They grind much faster than the standard burr set. I did not notice a taste difference, but with only one grinder, I could not A-B the burrs (and the old burr set had a couple hundred pounds run through them, which probably impacts taste).

Vario... I'd wait on preliminary reviews. My solution was to buy a Baratza Virtuoso for non-espresso brew. Vac pot: yum! My favorite non-espresso brewing method.

BTW, Chris Coffee is running an unadvertised special on the Cimbali Max Hybrid grinder, sale priced at $760 (not bad!).
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote: I'll wait for the official Mazzer burrs (just released actually) with a "real", proven TiN coating (ceramic) and a tooth pattern that won't stall my SJ motor.
As I said I've experienced no stalling issues in the month that I've been using the Duraniums so that isn't a given.
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote: Vario... I'd wait on preliminary reviews. My solution was to buy a Baratza Virtuoso for non-espresso brew. Vac pot: yum! My favorite non-espresso brewing method.
Never tried it but I'm looking forward to mine arriving. Whats a typical Vac Pot grind? Slightly finer then drip? Half way between drip & espresso?

As to the Vario I find it odd that so many people seem to think this 54mm flat burr grinder will be able to turn out an excellent espresso, drip & press pot grind. Since every other decent espresso grinder pretty much sucks at press pot why would this one be any different? Just because you adjust easily between the 3 types doesn't mean that it will grind consistently in each range.
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

JohnB wrote:
RapidCoffee wrote: Vario... I'd wait on preliminary reviews. My solution was to buy a Baratza Virtuoso for non-espresso brew. Vac pot: yum! My favorite non-espresso brewing method.
Never tried it but I'm looking forward to mine arriving. Whats a typical Vac Pot grind? Slightly finer then drip? Half way between drip & espresso?

As to the Vario I find it odd that so many people seem to think this 54mm flat burr grinder will be able to turn out an excellent espresso, drip & press pot grind. Since every other decent espresso grinder pretty much sucks at press pot why would this one be any different? Just because you adjust easily between the 3 types doesn't mean that it will grind consistently in each range.
JohnB wrote:
RapidCoffee wrote: Vario... I'd wait on preliminary reviews. My solution was to buy a Baratza Virtuoso for non-espresso brew. Vac pot: yum! My favorite non-espresso brewing method.
Never tried it but I'm looking forward to mine arriving. Whats a typical Vac Pot grind? Slightly finer then drip? Half way between drip & espresso?

As to the Vario I find it odd that so many people seem to think this 54mm flat burr grinder will be able to turn out an excellent espresso, drip & press pot grind. Since every other decent espresso grinder pretty much sucks at press pot why would this one be any different? Just because you adjust easily between the 3 types doesn't mean that it will grind consistently in each range.
I grind the same for press pot and vacuum pot. Coarse. To each is own.

The big problem with vacuum pot is temperature control. I stuck a thermometer into the top bowl once and was shocked at how crazy the temperature dynamics were.

Now I have a hole for a thermometer in the plastic top of my vacuum pot. I regulate the heat in order to keep the brewing process at 200 deg f. It is tricky because the thermal lag is huge.

I have the small Yama pot. I don't the cloth filter system. I use a glass rod. I found that the cloth filter picked up off flavors and I could not get rid of them. Maybe there is a trick that I am missing on this. With the rod, the grinds sometimes clog up the flow south; it's always something.

BillK
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

BillK wrote: I grind the same for press pot and vacuum pot. Coarse. To each is own.

I have the small Yama pot. I don't the cloth filter system. I use a glass rod. I found that the cloth filter picked up off flavors and I could not get rid of them. Maybe there is a trick that I am missing on this. With the rod, the grinds sometimes clog up the flow south; it's always something.

BillK
If you are using a coarse grind I can see why you aren't happy with the SJ. Seems that I read that the V/P grind should be finer then drip. In that range I think the SJ will do a nice job. As to the cloth filter I was told to rinse it thoroughly after use & soak it in Cafiza solution or something similar every 3-4 days if you use it daily. Also always store it in a baggy in the fridge.
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

JohnB wrote:
BillK wrote: I grind the same for press pot and vacuum pot. Coarse. To each is own.

I have the small Yama pot. I don't the cloth filter system. I use a glass rod. I found that the cloth filter picked up off flavors and I could not get rid of them. Maybe there is a trick that I am missing on this. With the rod, the grinds sometimes clog up the flow south; it's always something.

BillK
If you are using a coarse grind I can see why you aren't happy with the SJ. Seems that I read that the V/P grind should be finer then drip. In that range I think the SJ will do a nice job. As to the cloth filter I was told to rinse it thoroughly after use & soak it in Cafiza solution or something similar every 3-4 days if you use it daily. Also always store it in a baggy in the fridge.
I am very happy with the SJ, because my priority is espresso. For other grinds, no matter what range of coarseness I am in, I find the SJ gives a very non-uniform grind.

Check out this link for grind suggestions. Howell uses very coarse grinds, coarser than I do, because it promotes sweetness.
http://info.terroircoffee.com/learn/brewing/
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

George seems to be the only one advising a coarse grind for V/P. Sweet Marias says medium to fine but no powder & CG says slightly finer then drip. I guess I'll have to try both ways & see which I prefer. I would think you would need a longer steep time with the coarse grind then with a "finer then drip" grind.
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

:grin:
JohnB wrote:George seems to be the only one advising a coarse grind for V/P. Sweet Marias says medium to fine but no powder & CG says slightly finer then drip. I guess I'll have to try both ways & see which I prefer. I would think you would need a longer steep time with the coarse grind then with a "finer then drip" grind.
Miguel Mezza told me how he does press pot, and he uses a coarse grind, too. (He made me a press pot of a Panama once, which is still the best cup of coffee I think I have had, although to him it was nothing special.) Mezza and Howell make for a good testimonial. :grin:

Howell would say that you want to increase the amount of coffee you use, rather than extend the brew time. We just have to fiddle with these things, of course, to find out what works best for us and the particular coffee.

BillK
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

JohnB wrote:Never tried it but I'm looking forward to mine arriving. Whats a typical Vac Pot grind? Slightly finer then drip? Half way between drip & espresso?
Closer to drip than espresso. Too fine and it clogs the filter. Try about 18-24 small notches coarser (not finer :oops: ) than the espresso grind setting on your SJ for a 1-2" brew time. If you brew longer, use a coarser grind.
JohnB wrote:As to the Vario I find it odd that so many people seem to think this 54mm flat burr grinder will be able to turn out an excellent espresso, drip & press pot grind. Since every other decent espresso grinder pretty much sucks at press pot why would this one be any different? Just because you adjust easily between the 3 types doesn't mean that it will grind consistently in each range.
Agreed. Espresso needs a certain amount of fines for decent flow rates. For non-espresso brewing, fines will overextract and cause bitterness. I haven't experimented much with press pot from my espresso grinders (as I mentioned, I bought a Virtuoso for my press pot office brew), although the SJ does a creditable job on vac pot.

But I am far more concerned about espresso performance than press pot grinding from the Vario. Other grinders in the Baratza lineup are marginal for espresso. While the Vario has some nice features (grind adjustment and timer), it's a largely plastic grinder with pretty odd looking 54mm planar burrs. Nothing in the specs predicts excellent espresso.

I hope to be proved wrong. It's high time for some affordable new grinder designs to hit the market.
Last edited by RapidCoffee on Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote: Closer to drip than espresso. Too fine and it clogs the filter. Try about 18-24 small notches finer than the espresso grind setting on your SJ for a 1-2" brew time. If you brew longer, use a coarser grind.
I imagine you meant 18-24 notches "coarser" then espresso. My typical espresso setting is about 4 notches below 0 so somewhere around 2 would put me in the ballpark for a conventional V/P grind? I've used 4-4.5 for press pot but as I said before I prefer the KA Pro grind to what I get from the SJ in that range. What size V/P are you using the 1-2 minute steep time for?
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Sheesh, brain fart. Of course I meant coarser. Corrected in above post.

I've got a cheapo Yama 5-cup vac pot with cloth filters. Makes damn fine brew, really brings out the taste characteristics of a bean. Last fall the Klatch Ethiopean Worka produced a blueberry bomb in the VP, but the berry notes were almost entirely lost in the FP.

BTW, I used to have a KAP in my office for FP. Nice grinder, lots of innovative design features for the price. I never had the problems of inconsistent grind reported by some.
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote: BTW, I used to have a KAP in my office for FP. Nice grinder, lots of innovative design features for the price. I never had the problems of inconsistent grind reported by some.
Most, if not all of the complaints came from owners trying to use the KA for espresso. For press pot, drip, ect it does a very nice job & is certainly much better looking then any of the other choices in that price range. Glass hopper/grounds bin & 58mm flat burrs for $150-$175 new! Hard to beat. Plus it comes with one of the few useful Owners Manuals in the coffee brewing industry & a killer warranty.
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

MAN... this Vivaldi is sensitive to grind.

I just switched beans and had to change my SJ by 7 notches on the adjustment collar to get the same time. Must be the much taller 53mm puck that makes it more sensitive than my old 58mm machines.
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:I find the VIvaldi is very sensitive to grind adjustment. A lot more so than other machines. A one notch adjustment on my Mazzer can mean the difference of up to 5 seconds or more in shot time.
Endo wrote:MAN... this Vivaldi is sensitive to grind. I just switched beans and had to change my SJ by 7 notches on the adjustment collar to get the same time. Must be the much taller 53mm puck that makes it more sensitive than my old 58mm machines.
Pardon my confusion. By sensitive, I thought you meant that the slightest change to grind adjustment made a big difference in pour time (first post). Now it sounds as though I've got it backwards (second post). 7 notches is a big adjustment. Clarification please!

I have not noticed any particular sensitivity to grind, but that could be the Robur, which has a very large sweet spot. Robur now has a baby brother with flat burrs, and I will be doing some comparison tests over the next few days.

Another possibility (besides grind) is dose. How are you measuring the dose, by volume or weight? What beans are involved?
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

Sorry....you are right. I meant to say "insensitive" this time. It seems things reversed once I got the p/i installed and swapped beans. Now everything comes out much slower regardless of the grind (I guess the p/i is working). I suspect it has more to do with the bean switch (Sumatra, home roasted with 3-day degassing).

I'm not weighing anymore. I'm just leveling and tamping. I'll get out my scale again, remove the basket, get out the yogurt cups and taxidermy needle ;-) and start over again. It seems like every time I change beans or do something the tiniest bit different, this machine complains. I never had this much trouble dialing things in on other machines (even my "finicky" Silvia).

I'll open up my SJ grinder as well. I'm getting strange sounds as if the burrs are touching for a brief moment as I adjust my grind (close to the facory preset mark). That might explain the inconsistancies I'm getting as well (perhaps my burrs are out of alignment). Another possibility is that the new burrs are starting to get "seasoned".

I'll shut-up for a while and try to figure things out.....again. :x
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:It seems things reversed once I got the p/i installed and swapped beans. Now everything comes out much slower regardless of the grind (I guess the p/i is working). I suspect it has more to do with the bean switch (Sumatra, home roasted with 3-day degassing).

I'm not weighing anymore. I'm just leveling and tamping. I'll get out my scale again, remove the basket, get out the yogurt cups and taxidermy needle ;-) and start over again. It seems like every time I change beans or do something the tiniest bit different, this machine complains. I never had this much trouble dialing things in on other machines (even my "finicky" Silvia).
You might be seeing the effect of dose changes as well as grind changes. Try weighing the dose until you are back in the groove, and downdose slightly. Dose has a significant impact on pour times. Of course, with espresso, when you change anything, there's an effect.
Endo wrote:I'll open up my SJ grinder as well.
Whenever things go south for me, I go into deep cleaning mode:
1) open grinder, brush/blow out burr chanber, maybe run some instant rice (poor man's grindz) through it, then some old beans
2) detergent backflush the espresso machine, flush, run seasoning shot
It always makes me feel better - at least I'm doing something. Sometimes it even helps. :roll:
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

Sounds like good advice:

1-Clean
2-Downdose (I'll try 15g)
3-Weigh accurately

The nutation move I've started using might be adding some unnecessary variability as well (it's hard to control accurately). I'll try and stay with a straight tamp.

I'll see if this get me back in the groove tomorrow. Thanks again.
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

There are only 10 notches between my zero point & where I grind for espresso. A 7 notch change is huge & has nothing to do with the Vivaldi.
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

JohnB wrote:There are only 10 notches between my zero point & where I grind for espresso.
I don't think I have nearly that many notches before I get to zero. I once owned a new Rancilio Rocky that had a problem with burrs mis-alignment. I had to return it. I wonder if my new SJ has a similar problem. I'll check my number of notches to zero tonight and maybe I'll make a video to show the noise it makes as I approach the zero.
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:I once owned a new Rancilio Rocky that had a problem with burrs mis-alignment. I had to return it. I wonder if my new SJ has a similar problem. I'll check my number of notches to zero tonight and maybe I'll make a video to show the noise it makes as I approach the zero.
Before sending it back: it's no big deal to pull the burrs (less effort than making/posting a video ;-) ). Just remove the upper burr carrier and unscrew the three screws that attach each burr. You may need to wedge the lower burr carrier with a screwdriver to unscrew the bottom burr. Make sure to brush out all grinds, and screw the burrs back into place carefully. That would rule out an accidental misalignment.

IIRC, my duranium burrs zeroed a couple notches coarser than the original burrs.
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

RapidCoffee wrote: Before sending it back: it's no big deal to pull the burrs (less effort than making/posting a video ;-)
I won't be sending my SJ back! :smile: (I took advantage of returning the Rocky rather than trying to fix it because I was very disappointed with it in general). I then bought a Mazzer Mini instead (a MUCH better grinder IMO).

On my SJ, I'll do as you say and try a full disassembly and reassembly of the the burrs, just to be sure there is not obvious issues. I removed the upper carrier on my old Mazzer Mini a few times for cleaning, but I never removed the burrs. I haven't touched my SJ yet, but I think it's a good idea just to make sure everything is assembled properly and aligned (no factory stuff under one of the burrs for example).
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

RapidCoffee wrote:
IIRC, my duranium burrs zeroed a couple notches coarser than the original burrs.
Same here, they are slightly thicker.
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:On my SJ, I'll do as you say and try a full disassembly and reassembly of the the burrs, just to be sure there is not obvious issues. I removed the upper carrier on my old Mazzer Mini a few times for cleaning, but I never removed the burrs. I haven't touched my SJ yet, but I think it's a good idea just to make sure everything is assembled properly and aligned (no factory stuff under one of the burrs for example).
I got in the habit of pulling the SJ upper burr carrier for a deep cleaning every month or so. Probably unnecessary but not particularly onerous either. I never removed the burrs except for replacement, but in your case, it seems like a reasonable thing to try. Perhaps they are seated slightly off center, or some debris is wedged underneath. Worth a look.
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

RapidCoffee wrote:... in your case, it seems like a reasonable thing to try. Perhaps they are seated slightly off center, or some debris is wedged underneath. Worth a look.
Might be. My SJ doesn't seem any better than my old Mazzer Mini (actually a bit worse). I was hoping for more.
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

Took apart the SJ last night. Got everything apart except for the removal of the lower burr. Like you said, it's stuck pretty good. Tried wedging a screwdriver but it wouldn't budge. I decided to leave it in and only do the top.. Everything looked good except for a tiny bit of raised material where they drilled through the burrs to make the mounting holes. Burrs were razor sharp.

End result, no difference. Had to pull several shot to get it back to the right grind again. I'm 3 notches on the coarse side of the factory sticker right now. I checked my zero, and it's further down than I thought (about 12 notches down from the sticker....which seems consistant with other grinders). No more light touching sound. I suspect there is now less play in the burr carrier threads than when new. When you put it back together again, some coffee dust is bound to get in the threads (in the grease)and tighten it up a bit, like a teflon tape mod.

All that said, had my worst naked shots yet. Some gushers were so bad the stream shot out at 45 degrees and missed the cup! Now dialed in better, but the frustration level is getting very high (what's the distance record for a thrown PF)? I'm sure I'll get something decent eventually. But I'm starting to think I will never be 100% satisfied with the results from this machine. (Hope I'm wrong). :-(
oton

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by oton »

Endo wrote:
All that said, had my worst naked shots yet. Some gushers were so bad the stream shot out at 45 degrees and missed the cup!
:shock:

Why is that? Bad distribution? bad tamping? Is this a normal issue with all machines (e61)?
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:Took apart the SJ last night... End result, no difference... had my worst naked shots yet.
Sorry to hear about all the frustration. Keep in mind that you're gradually eliminating reasons for the bad pours, so it's not wasted effort. Just a few more suggestions:
1) Recheck your brew pressure. Make sure it's in the 8.5-9 bar range.
2) Try some different beans, preferably a tried and true blend from a well-regarded specialty roaster.
3) Downdose to 15-16g. You can try using a curved piece of plastic (like a yogurt cup lid) to scoop out a gentle depression in the center of the basket, instead of levelling to the basket rim.

Good luck!
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:
All that said, had my worst naked shots yet. Some gushers were so bad the stream shot out at 45 degrees and missed the cup! Now dialed in better, but the frustration level is getting very high (what's the distance record for a thrown PF)? I'm sure I'll get something decent eventually. But I'm starting to think I will never be 100% satisfied with the results from this machine. (Hope I'm wrong). :-(
Time to stop blaming the machine & figure out what you are doing wrong. As for getting the lower burr out I find its easiest if you come in from the exit chute with a flat bladed screwdriver & pop up one side slightly. After that put a screwdriver on each side of the burr & "walk" it up & off the carrier.
Even though both of the zero points on my SJs are in different areas the espresso sweet spot on both is 9-10 notches up from z/p. 15 notches up sounds pretty coarse for an SJ. Still doing 17g doses? How long before blonding?
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

JohnB wrote: I find its easiest if you come in from the exit chute with a flat bladed screwdriver & pop up one side slightly?
I didn't try that (doser in the way). I'll see if I can fit it in there next time.
JohnB wrote: Still doing 17g doses? How long before blonding?
Tried everything from 15g to 18g. No blonding issues, just lots of jets and very hard tiime getting an even, slow start which evolves into a good center pour. Uneven extraction basically. Seems like chanelling, but not on the sides necessarily. I've tried very meticulous WDT and I have a clicking 30 lb tamp (I keep it perfectly flat as well).

The shot is prepared perfectly. I understand my naked extraction expectations are probably higher than most. Still, I can get what I consider a close to "perfect" shot on almost all E-61 machines I have tried over the years. Andreja, Anita, Giotto. I can go on forever. Even came close on my Silvia as well ! I have never tried any other VIvaldis, so I will need to try that next. I'll be down at the Chris Coffee area on business in the next two weeks. I'll see if I can do a "test-drive" while there. This will at least tell me if it is specific to my setup.

If someone has a video of what they consider a "perfect" naked pour from a Vivaldi (preferrably a Mini), please show me. I haven't seen one. I see lots of beautiful photos, but I consider that cheating (can be easily done with super tight overextracted ristrettos). Show me a video with a 25 sec pour and a least 1oz to 2 oz .

I'll post some of my own and you can tell me if I'm being too picky.
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

Endo, I just got back from a trip, so I am not up to speed on your current situation.

In looking back over this thread, I see that at one point you were using a Sumatra. Is this still the situation?

When I have ground some Sumatras for an espresso extraction, particularly aged Sumatras, I have had to make a
serious change in the grind setting from other beans, such as Brazil-heavy espresso blends.

In the case of an aged Sumatra (or some decaf espresso blends), I have had to grind much, much finer. When I say much, much finer, I mean three notches
or so, which is a huge change. On the other hand, right now I am using Klatch espresso. I have both the Bella and the World's Best. The difference between these two coffees, in terms of grind setting, is virtually nil. I also have some lighter roasted Guat and Columbia, and I can get well timed shots by setting the grinder within a fraction of a notch different than the espressos.

Were it me, I would get rid of the Sumatra for as long as I was trying to sort things out.

Were it me, I would want to be absolutely sure that there is nothing wrong with the S1. I would make certain that I had something in the area of 9 bars of pressure during each shot. And 200 deg F temp when shooting 2 oz of water into a cup. You probably know this technique already, but my technique to get a gross handle on the brew temp is to use a thermometer and foam cup. I put 2 oz of water into a foam cup that is tall enough to go right up to the brew head. Using a razor blade or Xacto, I cut a triangular or square hole in the side of the cup so that any more than two oz of water will leak through the hole. I push a calibrated thermometer through the side of the cup so that the probe will sit in the 2 oz of water. I put the cup/thermometer under the brew head and dump brew water into the cup until it starts to come out the hole. This is very gross, but it is good enough to tell me that the machine is basically working. I would do this repeatedly, to make sure that nothing was changing in the machine. If I can do this without problem, I would start looking elsewhere - grinder, coffee, technique. It is exceedingly unlikely that your S1, if working to spec, is the source of your problem.

The fact that others have the S1 and SJ combination, and the combination works great, is evidence that you have a problem of some sort. Do not change equipment, thinking that this combination cannot do it for you. This combination CAN do it. Beautifully. You have some sort of problem, and you just need to identify it and then you will be on your way.

BillK
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

Thanks Bill, this is all great advice.

I haven't tried the temp calibration yet. Since my machine is not a Chris Coffee machine (where they calibrate it before shipping), perhaps it is off. I noticed that some people here prefer setting about 3C to 4C lower than me for the same coffee, so perhaps my machine is too low (I am doing the warming flushes).

I think you hit the "nail on the head" as far as bean changes. I have been switching a lot lately (since I am using a LOT of coffee trying to get things right). I go from hard to soft beans and I'm almost sure this is the main reason for my problems. I think it might also explain the different volumes I have been getting (different absorption). I neeed to stay with one bean.

Unfortunately, I couldn't resist today and bought some new 49th "Cup of Excellence" from El Salvador. Oh well, another new variable. :grin:
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

Endo wrote:Thanks Bill, this is all great advice.

I haven't tried the temp calibration yet. Since my machine is not a Chris Coffee machine (where they calibrate it before shipping), perhaps it is off. I noticed that some people here prefer setting about 3C to 4C lower than me for the same coffee, so perhaps my machine is too low (I am doing the warming flushes).

I think you hit the "nail on the head" as far as bean changes. I have been switching a lot lately (since I am using a LOT of coffee trying to get things right). I go from hard to soft beans and I'm almost sure this is the main reason for my problems. I think it might also explain the different volumes I have been getting (different absorption). I neeed to stay with one bean.

Unfortunately, I couldn't resist today and bought some new 49th "Cup of Excellence" from El Salvador. Oh well, another new variable. :grin:
I have two machines, one of which is the older V1. While I got it from Chris, it was not calibrated, so I was not able to take anything for granted, which put me in your situation. The foam cup method is quick and dirty, and it will tell you instantly if you are in the right ballpark or if there is something wrong with the thermal control of the machine. Be sure to calibrate your thermometer ahead of time, so that it reads about 212 deg F in boiling water. I use one of the milk steaming thermometers. Once you are certain that your thermal control is OK, you can look elsewhere with confidence.

The El Salvador COE should not present any bean-related problems. You should be very close - within about one set of marks, or what is called a graduation - of where you would be with a normal espresso blend. Were it me, I would not change any current grinder setting or S1 setting for my first attempt with this bean, because I would not have been using Sumatra and I would know that I am already close. I would then get the grind right, as a next step. This would take me only a couple of shots. If my grind was too coarse, I would make the grind finer by moving the ring from coarser-to-finer (grinder running); if I overshot on my target adjustment, I would back the ring off a few graduations, then try again to hit my target without overshooting. If my grind was too fine, I would take note of where I have the grinder set and my new target setting, then back the ring off a few graduations, then (grinder running) slowly approach my desired next setting from a coarser-to-finer direction. I never go with a grinder setting unless it has been achieved by moving the ring from coarser-to-finer. (I think the SJ adjustment is supposed to be zero thread lash due to the spring pre-load, but I don't assume it.) Once I had the grind pretty good, I would probably find that I had to use a higher temperature with the S1 (light roast?) to make it drinkable (El Salvador COE as espresso?). This, in turn, might cause me to make a slight change in the final grind setting. All of these grind settings would be within a single graduation, or maybe a bit more, of the SJ. Every minor change of grind would result in a completely predictable change in the shot volume per unit of time. This is what you should experience. Anything different, and you know you have a problem of some sort. I am telling you here specifically what you should expect. You will want to avoid making wholesale changes - figure out where your S1 (temp and pressure) is operating as a first step, then make one change at a time and evaluate. Induction. Francis Bacon. :-)

BillK
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

I just picked up one of these to check brew temps: http://webtronics.stores.yahoo.net/digtherwkpro.html Pretty cheap & seems to be quite accurate.
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

Yep. Turns out my troubles were the result of a bad bag (actually two bags) of beans.

I've been experimenting with a different local roaster and it seems the beans were not just bad but also stale (he told me it was roasted the last week....bull). I switch blends to a good quality South American and things are much better (and more predictable).

Bill and Rapid, thanks for you help. You both hinted at this, and were right. :grin:
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:Yep. Turns out my troubles were the result of a bad bag (actually two bags) of beans.

I've been experimenting with a different local roaster and it seems the beans were not just bad but also stale (he told me it was roasted the last week....bull). I switch blends to a good quality South American and things are much better (and more predictable).

Bill and Rapid, thanks for you help. You both hinted at this, and were right. :grin:
Are you planning on posting that tidbit of info in your H-B thread? http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-ma ... t9796.html
oton

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by oton »

change beans has fixed fast ramp up and "low viscosity"?
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

JohnB wrote: Are you planning on posting that tidbit of info in your H-B thread? http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-ma ... t9796.html
No. On H-B I was discussing the differences in pre-infusion. I'd like those with E-61 experience to comment as well. It has nothing to do with beans.
oton wrote:change beans has fixed fast ramp up and "low viscosity"?
No. It seems the fast ramp-up will always remain. It is just a characteristic of this machine. As Rapid pointed out, there are other machines that also have this characteristic. It is what it is.

My bean problem only fixed my chanelling and consistancy issues highlight in this post (and my naked pour post) only.

What I would love to have one day is a machine that allows you to adjust pressure profiles. I think only the $7000+ machines have this (like the GS/3, Synesso and now the Slayer, I believe).

Have a look at the pace on this shot from a GS/3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKjFIaZZ ... re=related

I had some back-to-back shots on Saturday from a 3 group Faema E-61 and then a 3 group Mirage. The E-61 was thin (and too hot), but the Mirage was very syrupy and flavorful. I got the same syrupy flavor on Sam's 3 group Synesso at Veritas. So I don't think the viscosity is a E-61 thing any longer. Bad news is, I've only got this last element of the "God Shot" on $7000+ machines. :-(

Just to re-assure any potential Vivaldi owners, the shots I get from my Vivaldi are some of the best I've ever had at home. I might have a very slight personal preference for the flavor from the E-61, but the conveniences of the DB more than make up for that.
JohnB

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:
JohnB wrote: Are you planning on posting that tidbit of info in your H-B thread? http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-ma ... t9796.html
No. On H-B I was discussing the differences in pre-infusion. I'd like those with E-61 experience to comment as well. It has nothing to do with beans.
oton wrote:change beans has fixed fast ramp up and "low viscosity"?
No. It seems the fast ramp-up will always remain. It is just a characteristic of this machine. As Rapid pointed out, there are other machines that also have this characteristic. It is what it is.

My bean problem only fixed my chanelling and consistancy issues highlight in this post (and my naked pour post) only.

.

So your stale beans had no effect on your pour times or viscosity? Is this yet another Endo first? :roll: Where are all the other posts from Mini owners complaining about "fast ramp up" if they all do it?
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:What I would love to have one day is a machine that allows you to adjust pressure profiles. I think only the $7000+ machines have this (like the GS/3, Synesso and now the Slayer, I believe).

Have a look at the pace on this shot from a GS/3...
That's a ristretto pour (40 seconds), IIRC one of Dan Kehn's. He posted some exquisite maked videos from the GS/3... but is not a big booster of the machine.

Pressure profiling may be the Next Big Thing, but the only affordable machines with brew pressure profiling are manual levers (and their profiles aren't exactly reproducible). With a rotary pump, you can play with pressure profiling by removing any pressure regulator from the water line, and opening the water faucet during the pour. (Seriously - I played around with this a bit last summer, trying to reproduce the pressure profile of a spring lever.)

For the time being, I'd recommend spending your money on really good coffee instead of chasing a GS/3. :grin: Any good roasters in the Great White North? Can you order beans from specialty roasters in the US?
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

Interesting comments on pressure. I'd love to try experimenting with that in the future.

As far beans go, I try a lot of different stuff. I'm lucky and get amazing stuff from JF Leduc at Cafe in Gamba (usually one week from roast) 8) :

Coffee Klatch Bella Vista
PT's Belle Vita
Zoka Espresso Paladino
49th Epic Espresso (from the great white :grin: ).
Intelligensia Black Cat, Kid-O

and next week...Terroir (2 types I'm told).

I also buy occasionally from a local Quebec roaster called "Les Cafes Europeens". They make a blend I like called "Calamaro" which can be good (and quite a bit cheaper than the imported gourmet brands above). I bought some of this to save money while I dialed things in. I was told it was 1 week old, but I bet it was more like 1 month.

I also roasted some of my own for the same $ reason. Switching from fresh 3 day old home roast to stale 1 month old really threw things off (obviously).

I'm back to the tolerant (but $20/lb) South American gourmet brands and everything is under control now.
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:Interesting comments on pressure. I'd love to try experimenting with that in the future.
Been some hype about pressure profiling recently. Worthwhile keeping an eye on this, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it to hit the prosumer market.
Endo wrote:As far beans go, I try a lot of different stuff.
Some of my favs too. Like you, I'm a home roaster... but I can't compete with the best from those specialty roasters.
Endo wrote:They make a blend I like called "Calamaro" which can be good (and quite a bit cheaper than the imported gourmet brands above). I bought some of this to save money while I dialed things in.I also roasted some of my own for the same $ reason. Switching from fresh 3 day old home roast to stale 1 month old really threw things off (obviously).

I'm back to the tolerant (but $20/lb) South American gourmet brands and everything is under control now.
Ouch! Klatch Belle Espresso is ~$10/lb in bulk (5lb), and coupon code LOVE gets you $5 off a $35 order thru Feb.10. Even if you toss 4# in the freezer, it should be a huge improvement over the "Squid" coffee. :lol:
oton

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by oton »

JohnB wrote:
Endo wrote:
JohnB wrote: Are you planning on posting that tidbit of info in your H-B thread? http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-ma ... t9796.html
No. On H-B I was discussing the differences in pre-infusion. I'd like those with E-61 experience to comment as well. It has nothing to do with beans.
oton wrote:change beans has fixed fast ramp up and "low viscosity"?
No. It seems the fast ramp-up will always remain. It is just a characteristic of this machine. As Rapid pointed out, there are other machines that also have this characteristic. It is what it is.

My bean problem only fixed my chanelling and consistancy issues highlight in this post (and my naked pour post) only.

.
So your stale beans had no effect on your pour times or viscosity? Is this yet another Endo first? :roll: Where are all the other posts from Mini owners complaining about "fast ramp up" if they all do it?
Perhaps, what Endo wants (and me :mrgreen:) is to see more videos of users pouring a slow ramp up and/or syrupy shot.

Anyways, is the slow ramp up thing synonim of quality shot? why?
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

Could somebody please define for me what is meant by a "slow" ramp-up? I have the chamber on my original S1 and it takes several seconds for the ramp-up to full pressure. Is the ramp-up I am getting considered "slow"?

BillK
oton

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by oton »

Take a look at this thread

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1058
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

I agree. Perhaps it's best to move this discussion over to the "Naked Video" discussion.

The "grind" issues I raised here were mostly solved by switching beans and installing pre-infusion, so this issue (and post) is finished in my opinion (unless someone else is having problems).

The "ramp-up" (and viscosity) is just something interesting I noticed when comparing Vivaldi naked shots (videos) to some other machines (including some of the very "high end" ones).I think it's worth discussing but I don't mean to imply it's "destroying" the taste of our shots in any way.
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

Endo, I will make one more suggestion. You say that you are getting mail order beans that are 7 days old. This is too old, as a starting point, in my book.

I try to use beans that are as young as possible. When I am in MN I order Paradise, mostly. When I am in AZ I order Klatch, mostly. This is because they both come in about two days. If you talk to the best baristas in the Twin Cities, they will tell you that Paradise Classico peaks in 5 days. If you talk to Mike Perry at Klatch, he will tell you that he prefers a rest of 4-5 days for his espresso blends. There are two data points for you, both from experts (not me), both consistent even though their blends and roast levels differ. (I personally prefer any espresso starting at about two days, as I like to brighter, more intense flavors on most of the blends. As soon as I get beans, I freeze them and take them out for use a couple of days at a time.)

The point is, were it me, as my top priority, I would start looking for a quality roaster that could provide beans in less than a week from roasting. You get beans that start at 7 days and you are working on the wrong end of the curve. I'll bet you will like your S1, and any machine, better if you get younger beans.

BillK
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

oton wrote:Take a look at this thread

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1058
This thread didn't really show me anything, in terms of defining fast versus slow.

It didn't show me Endo's pour, either, because the video seemed to be gone (perhaps I have a browser problem again).

I did find the link to Rapid's comparison of the S1 to the Vetrano. I thought that was a very interesting and fair sounding comparison, Rapid! I seriously considered the Vetrano, instead of a second S1. In the end, I said the hell with it I am going with simple operation. I am glad I did, but I think I could not have gone wrong either way.

Until informed otherwise, I will think that my VI chamber ramp-up is Goldiloks, not too fast, not too slow, just right - I like it the way it is. On my V2 I can set it any way I want.

BillK
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

BillK wrote: Until informed otherwise, I will think that my VI chamber ramp-up is Goldiloks, not too fast, not too slow, just right - I like it the way it is. On my V2 I can set it any way I want.
When I look at naked PF videos, I don't see any Vivaldis that I would rate in the "top ten" shots (especially at the start where most Vivaldis seem to start quicker).

Let me know if you post one that you think will change my opinion.

(BTW, I saw a very nice naked video yesterday on a DC mini with a 54mm PF....so I'm still hopeful).
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

BillK wrote:I did find the link to Rapid's comparison of the S1 to the Vetrano. I thought that was a very interesting and fair sounding comparison, Rapid! I seriously considered the Vetrano, instead of a second S1. In the end, I said the hell with it I am going with simple operation. I am glad I did, but I think I could not have gone wrong either way.

Until informed otherwise, I will think that my VI chamber ramp-up is Goldiloks, not too fast, not too slow, just right - I like it the way it is. On my V2 I can set it any way I want.
Thanks, Bill. I agree: both of these are excellent machines. I've had a Vetrano for over three years, and still consider it one of the top prosumer HX machines.

I just received my S1 preinfusion retrofit today. I'm looking forward to giving it a try, although my S1 pours have been just fine without it. This is a busy week, so it will probably have to wait until the weekend. But the new steam wand tip gets tested right after dinner. :smile:
BillK

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by BillK »

Ha, you won't make it to the weekend, or I miss my guess. Two screws to remove the front panel, then about five minutes to bolt the new part in and leak check it.

BillK
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

You already know me too well... :-P Wish I could clone the S1 first, and A-B the results (with and without preinfusion).

The new 4-hole steam tip was a worthwhile upgrade. The old 3-hole tip was great for larger quantities of milk, not the ~3oz I typically froth for myself and my cat.
P1060505.JPG
P1060505.JPG (82.38 KiB) Viewed 45926 times
Endo

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by Endo »

RapidCoffee wrote: Thanks, Bill. I agree: both of these are excellent machines. I've had a Vetrano for over three years, and still consider it one of the top prosumer HX machines.
Rapid, I can't remember if you said you did a "back-to back" test on the Vetrano and S1.

What I mean is, don't touch the grinder setting, weigh, dose and tamp exactly the same amount (16g lets say), pull a 30 second shot from each machine and then compare volumes, crema, taste, make a naked video, etc?

I'd be curious to see how each machine reacts to exactly the same grind and dose.
RapidCoffee

Re: Vivaldi Grind Sensitivity

Post by RapidCoffee »

Endo wrote:Rapid, I can't remember if you said you did a "back-to back" test on the Vetrano and S1.

What I mean is, don't touch the grinder setting, weigh, dose and tamp exactly the same amount (16g lets say), pull a 30 second shot from each machine and then compare volumes, crema, taste, make a naked video, etc?
Yes, see my H-B post for taste impressions. Despite the machine differences, I tried to keep things as standardized as possible: similar pour times, brew ratios, etc. Sorry, no naked videos. Crema just isn't an issue.
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