Help! Back to drinking lattes!

[JohnB]

The first day with the V2 has not gone well. No matter what I try my shots all taste sour. I played with the 2 day old Barrington Gold first but no joy. I got nice 25-30 second pours with a single stream & striping with 16-17 g doubles. The crema looked great but they all tasted sour. Varied the temp from 93-96C but no real difference.
Then I switched back to the Black Cat which I had gotten decent straight shots out of with the Vetrano but no real difference. Still sour. I even dragged out the bathroom scale to double check my tamps. Finally I got sick of sipping sour shots & threw the last one in with some Monin & steamed milk.
Any advice would be very much appreciated.

[Niko]

It sounds like you've been doing everything right :?
It might be sour from some type of channeling rather from temperature, it's possible, what you describe doesn't point to channeling but rather a temp problem.
I know you probably did this, but did you let the machine warm up for at least 30 minutes with the PF in the group? And did you run 3 blank shots in a row to bring the group up to temp?

Varied the temp from 93-96C but no real difference.

This points a finger at distribution, causing some type of channeling when the shots taste similar in that temp range you're describing.

[boldstep]

Have you tried a bottomless porta-filter to see if you are channeling?

[JohnB]

I am using a bottomless portafilter & most of the pours looked good once I got the grind dialed in. I did let the machine warm up for awhile & was pulling shots over a 2 hour period. I ran 1 or 2 blanks initially & then ran 1 blank whenever the machine set unused for 10 minutes or more or when I changed temp.

[Niko]

OK.
That's what I thought, everything sounds OK by what you're posting so I won't ask you to post a video of an extraction.
Sounds like you need to somehow measure the brew temp to see at what what temp the water is hitting the cake.

[JohnB]

Almost sounds like I'm back with the Vetrano again?? I was under the impression that with 1 or 2 blanks the temp at the puck was pretty close to what is coming out of the boiler. Do you have to draw a blank before every shot or just when the machine is first warming up? Sounds like I've gone from cooling flushes to warming flushes.

[Niko]

Yes, you've gone from cooling flushes to warming flushes but at least the warming flushes are quicker. Not only are they quicker, they're not required on successive shots one after another. Also, with the Vetrano you never know exactly what temp you're getting with it unless you get it down to science every time with the flushes for repeatability (timing them helps). The S1 is just simply easier.
I don't think you need to go back to the Vetrano, it's just a matter of getting used to the machine. A lot of us had these growing pains, I think you'll work it out.
I'm still thinking of ideas...


Any pinholes or pencil-like holes in the puck to show evidence of channeling?

[JohnB]

None that I noticed but I didn't really dissect the pucks. They certainly seemed solid, especially if I didn't pull the p/f right away. I'll pay closer attention tomorrow but if I had channeling it would have been apparent from watching the pour out of the bottomless p/f. Right?

So you initially run 3 blank (singles? Doubles?) when first warming up the machine & assume you've got the brewhead up to boiler temp? Then what? Remove & quickly fill/tamp the p/f, reinstall & pull the shot immediately if the temp light isn't flashing or wait XX amount of seconds for the P/F to heat back up? Or is the reinstalled p/f now sucking heat out of the brew head so you don't want to wait?

What about when you come back for another shot after 30 minutes or more? Same deal? How about setting the brew temp several degrees higher to compensate for the cooler brew head? Isn't the brew head directly attached to the boiler? I'm surprised it doesn't stay hot.

[wgaggl]

From what you tell us your technique seems to be ok. And even with some channeling I typically don't get sour shots with my S1. Especially not with BlackCat, which does well with slightly lower brewing temps.

As Niko suggested, you might want to find a way to measure the group temperature. All you really need is a ballpark number here, so the "pull blank without PF straight into styrofoam cup and measure" method would be sufficient to diagnose a gross miscalibration of the group temp probe. Your meter should be accurate to at least 1degC (again, we are only looking at an approximate number for diagnosis purposes right now).

One other thing that I highly suggest checking is the group pressure. With a pressure below 8 bar I tended to get sour shots myself. I'm currently running at 8.4, but anything between 8 and 9 should be acceptable. Depending of your water line pressure, your brewing pressure could differ a little from the factory setting.

Wolfgang

[Niko]

If it helps, some of use can take a reading for you in a similar environment so you can compare notes.
We can pull a blank into an iLLy cup or a styrofoam at a particular setting, then you can do the same and compare with each other.
But like Wolfgang said, check your manometer reading while the shot pulls with coffee in the PF.

[wgaggl]

We can pull a blank into an iLLy cup or a styrofoam at a particular setting,

A styrofoam cup works best for that simple method. It has a very low heat capacity.
Please don't use ceramics or other materials with high heat capacity for such measurements, as these materials will significantly influence the outcome.

I think I do remember that Chas himself has done measurements with that methods a few years ago, so comparative data and details of the protocol he used should be available here.

And again, this is not about getting precise sub-degree measurements at this point; it's to quickly troubleshoot your issue. If you went up to a 96 degC setting and still get sour shots, then something must be significantly off.

As you have the V2 the pressure measurement should be the easiest.
Try it first with the blind filter in, then check it with an espresso shot.
Both times the pressure should stabilize somewhere between 8-9bar after a while. If the blind filter test shows a different value, then you know you need to change the pump pressure. If there's a substantial difference in pressure between blind filter and espresso shot, then you got a flow problem (could be an obstruction to the flow inside the machine or on the supply end).

Wolfgang

[Niko]

A styrofoam cup works best for that simple method.

Sorry, no styrofoam cups in my house today

But I hope he has some.

[wgaggl]

A styrofoam cup works best for that simple method.

Sorry, no styrofoam cups in my house today

But I hope he has some.

I hear you, Niko. Same here, I think...
A thinwalled plastic cup works too, if you have the ability to measure fast (like with a digital meter). Just don't use materials with higher heat capacity (such as ceramics, metal, glass - yes even these great double-walled bodum espresso cups eat some heat).

Wolfgang

[Niko]

Yeah, those Bodums are murder on the lips!
I own a Scace so no need for the other methods but it's good to know what works in a pinch.
I was willing to pull some blanks into cups for him but I don't have any plastic or styrofoam cups on hand.
Only the finest porcelain in this house


But if he has a Fluke and I use my Fluke, we can pull into the same style cup. Now if I can hunt down some cheapo plastic cups somewhere....

[JohnB]

My pressure stabilizes right at 9 with the blank & when brewing. I just took a series of measurements using a styrofoam cup & a digital kitchen thermometer with & w/o the p/f(no basket). Since I have no way of telling how accurate the d/t is I won't put much stock into the actual max temps but it was eye opening as far as how many flushes were required to get to that max temp.

With the machine set at 97*C w/o portafilter: 1/197F, 2/201F, 3/202.5f, 4/203.5f

At 96*C w/o portafilter (5 minute cool down): 1/192.1F, 2/199F, 3/199.6F, 4/202F

At 96*C with the p/f (no basket) after letting the p/f warm up for 6 minutes: 1/192.1F, 2/197.4F, 3/199.2F, 4/199.3F, 5/199.4F

At 94*C w/o portafilter within 2 minutes of previous flushing at same temp: 1/194.6F, 2/197.2F, 3/199.1F, 4/199.7F

All tests were with the cup held up to the brew head or p/f & each flush was done as soon as the temp recovered or approx every 40-50 seconds.

I've been playing with the Barrington Gold today & the best tasting shot was drawn at 97C after 4 flushes. One thing I can't seem to shake is a slight saltiness. I had this with the Vetrano also & originally blamed the CC softener system but when I taste the brew water straight it isn't there. Maybe it's just my taste buds as I get this with the Black Cat also. I don't recall noticing the saltiness?? the few times I've had Espresso at cafes or at a friends house last month (Saeco Aroma) but I'm an Espresso newbie so I'm not really sure what good Espresso should taste like.


I have a friend who may have an accurate temp measuring set up who I'll check with later today. I did notice that my machine's temp offset is set to 0* so if I understand this correctly it is maxed out heat adjustment wise.

[chas]

One other thing that I highly suggest checking is the group pressure. With a pressure below 8 bar I tended to get sour shots myself. I'm currently running at 8.4, but anything between 8 and 9 should be acceptable. Depending of your water line pressure, your brewing pressure could differ a little from the factory setting.

Wolfgang

I concur on this assessment. Over the holidays I tested and retuned my machine for the first time since I received it. I found that my temp offset was 2C off and my line pressure must have been lower than when I first set it as is was slightly under 8psi. Those two changes made a world of difference on the palate.

[wgaggl]

John,

the variability you experience with this method was to be expected.
But the numbers (assuming your thermometer is reasonably accurate enough) seem completely reasonable with that method.

Your cup measurements confirm that you reach the necessary temperature. And with the higher settings you even exceed that ideal temperature, so one would expect that you get bitter rather than sour espresso with that setting.

It doesn't seem that temperature really is your problem.

And the pressure seems ok too.

I'm puzzled by that.

Re saltiness: I had that (and Intelligentsia confirmed that) with water that was too soft. And it is not possible to taste that in the water alone.

BTW: Did you check the temperature offset? That could buy you another couple of degC upwards for testing.

I can't think of anything else now,

Wolfgang

[JohnB]

John,

Re saltiness: I had that (and Intelligentsia confirmed that) with water that was too soft. And it is not possible to taste that in the water alone.

Wolfgang

So I would have to mix some of my hard water back into the feed line to the machine to get rid of the saltiness?? Has anyone on this forum done this?

[Niko]

Only other thing I can think of when I taste salty espresso is that the beans didn't reach 1st crack fast enough (baked).
But that's definitely not the case here.
It does sound like water that has been oversoftened :?
Quite baffling...

[JohnB]

I called CC about the saltiness when I was first trying to dial in the Vetrano but was told if I didn't taste it in the water then it wasn't the softener. I've been dealing with this issue for weeks & it's very nice to finally have an answer & a solution. Now I need to get a hardness test kit that is more accurate then the CC strips & round up the pieces to plumb in a mixing valve between the softener & carbon filter.

Once I've gotten rid of the saltiness I can concentrate on fine tuning to eliminate sourness/bitterness.

[Niko]

Keep us posted, John.
Let us know how the water tests go.

[JohnB]

Does anyone have any tips on an inexpensive mixing valve I could use to add some unsoftened water back into the feed line? Is this something I might find at Home Depot? It would have to accept the JG/Watts fittings. Seems I saw a pic of someones set up on here with a similar device but now I can't find it.

[Niko]

Only people that I can think of is Mark (MDL) and Martin (there's a few Martins) - he's the guy with the cow avatar.

[wgaggl]

So I would have to mix some of my hard water back into the feed line to the machine to get rid of the saltiness?? Has anyone on this forum done this?

Yep, that's the typical solution with RO systems.
Intelly themselves have used that solution before switching to a more complicated system a few years ago that adds minerals back on a controlled basis.

More traditional filter systems with ion exchanger substrates don't neutralize all hardness anyways, so you don't need to worry much. But I usually notice a slight difference when changing filters.

I would think a John Guest t-connector and 2 shutoff valves would do the mixing job. These parts can be found at ChrisCoffee.com.
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... ngfittings

W.

[Niko]

John,
Are you using an RO system?

[wgaggl]

John,

are you using a cat-ion filter?

(Edit: I just realized Niko just asked that question...)

Typically the "too-soft" problem arises with multi-stage RO systems mostly.

So the question would be how soft your water is to begin with.

W.

[JohnB]

I'm using the CC Water Softener system (http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... enersystem) & what I'm looking for is a mixer that will allow me to control the amount of hard water I add back into the machine water feed. I have pretty hard well water (15g(250PPM) using CC's strips) so I'm only looking to add back enough to get rid of the saltiness. I'm currently between 0-3g at the machine so if I can bring it up a couple grains it should be enough.

[JohnB]

This is the pic I was trying to find from Martin's Photos on the Pride Page.
http://www.pbase.com/mnl/image/77147454
I'm looking for a mixer like that if it is adjustable. Sent Martin a PM but no idea how often he checks in.

[JohnB]

I disabled the softener system today by removing both cartridges & flushing the system/machine. I also bought a real hardness test kit that uses the liquid drops instead of the test strips. Testing my untreated well water with the new kit showed 7g whereas the strips had indication 15g. Oddly enough the water coming out of the brew head tests lower then the water going in. I'll check it again in a day or two to see if that changes.

I pulled a few shots with a decaf Espresso Blend & there was no hint of saltiness. At this point I'm not sure if I'll hook the system back up or not. I did find this mixing valve that looks like it would work as the "hot" side is adjustable for flow.
http://www.chicagofaucets.com/catalog/c ... -045KJKRBF

[Niko]

Wow, that's quite a valve!

[wgaggl]

John,

so you had the same experience Intelly told me about: Softened water is prone to saltiness. Sounds familiar to me.

So you have about 120ppm hardness (7gram/gal). That's pretty common. I still would not go without a softener. Anything above 50ppm will cause buildup in your machine at brewing temperature.

These test kits may measure different at different temperatures (e.g. testing 60F water vs. 205F hot water). When testing brewing water let it cool to room temp first. Any remaining difference means that the minerals falling out at brewing temperature slowly but surely will buildup in the boilers and on the heating elements. In theory if you boil hard water long enough you will end up with 50ppm water (the rest stays in the kettle).

Wolfgang

[JohnB]

I'll retest the brew water tomorrow after letting it cool off & see what I get. Once I get the parts together to modify the softener system I will hook it back up. Until then I'll be brewing with my well water.

[JohnB]

I got the new lines/valves installed last night & did some testing this morning. Using one of the liquid drop hardness test kits my water out of the softener system tested between 0-20ppm. I ended up opening the JG shut off valve on the hard water mix in line about half way before I got the hardness up into the 50ppm range so I'm guessing the softened water was much closer to 0 then 20ppm.

I then flushed out the boilers & pulled a couple shots to test for saltiness using the Liquid Amber I've been drinking lately. Sure enough the saltiness was back! I tested some water right out of the brew head after letting it cool to room temp & it was right in the 50-60ppm range. Maybe it's my taste buds after drinking unsoftened well water for the past 28 years??

I don't have the saltiness running straight well water(120ppm) so I'll keep adding back more hard water to see if it goes away. If I end up back close to 120ppm I'll just yank the softener system & descale the boilers every year or two.

[Niko]

You'll definitely know when it's time to descale by the sound of the steam boiler, it starts to rattle and knock. In fact, it sounds like a set of Bongos. I've heard a scaled up S1 fire up and all I wanted to do was dance...

[JohnB]

I opened the hard water valve completely which brings the hardness up around 80ppm. I'll try that for a few days & see how the shots taste.

[Aracel]

A styrofoam cup works best for that simple method. It has a very low heat capacity.
Please don't use ceramics or other materials with high heat capacity for such measurements, as these materials will significantly influence the outcome.

This maybe stupid question. Could anyone please tell me how to get the brew temperature using the styrofoam cup? Can I use the thermometer that is normally used for steaming milk? Where do I place the thermometer and how or where do I position the styrofoam? Should it be close to the group head? BTW, when I'm pulling a shot, the manometer is on 8 bar but when I backflush with plain water using the backflush rubber disk, it is on 9 bar. Does this mean anything? I would greatly appeciate comments/replies. Thanks so much in advance.

[JohnB]

You should be seeing 9 bar in both instances unless somethings up with your puck. How long are your shots from beginning to blonding?

As to the cup you want to cut it down so it fits tightly against the group gasket & stands about 1.5" tall. Use a 300*F digital thermometer that you have verified accurate in boiling water & stick it into the lower part of the cup so that the tip only touches water not the other side of the cup. Set the volume so it cuts off before the cup overflows & wear a mitt.

Alternatively you can remove the basket & try to force the cut down cup inside your p/f so enough protrudes underneath to insert the thermometer. Typically the cup will break but you might get lucky.

[Aracel]

You should be seeing 9 bar in both instances unless somethings up with your puck. How long are your shots from beginning to blonding?

Thanks so much for the prompt reply. This site is awesome. I get very fast replies. I have not timed how long the shots from beginning to blonding. But the total time of the shot is 25 seconds on 2oz. I won't be home today until later in the afternoon and I don't have the styrofoam cup yet. Got to get it. BTW since I got the Mini, the manometer had been reading between the 7.5 and 8 bar when it is pulling shot. There was no paddle of water on top of the puck but now I get paddle.

[JohnB]

It sounds like you may need to adjust the pressure as you should be seeing around 9 when pulling a shot. Are you concerned about the brew temp because of poor tasting shots? You won't get good flavors until you get that brew pressure up. It is odd that you see 9bar with a blind basket but not with the coffee. Have you tried grinding finer or tamping firmer to see if there is any change?

[Aracel]

It sounds like you may need to adjust the pressure as you should be seeing around 9 when pulling a shot. Are you concerned about the brew temp because of poor tasting shots? You won't get good flavors until you get that brew pressure up. It is odd that you see 9bar with a blind basket but not with the coffee. Have you tried grinding finer or tamping firmer to see if there is any change?

Thanks for the prompt response. I tried a finer grind; and the shot coming out was too thin and I think it was just a little over half of an ounce. It reached the 9 bar though. If I grind courser, the shot coming out was too much and very light. It was around 4 oz. and the bar was on 4. I use the espro and tamp it twice. Of course, I would love to have good flavors. Is it easy to adjust the brew pressure? Or is it a hazzle?

[JohnB]

What are you using for a grinder?

[chas]

Thanks for the prompt response. I tried a finer grind; and the shot coming out was too thin and I think it was just a little over half of an ounce. It reached the 9 bar though. If I grind courser, the shot coming out was too much and very light. It was around 4 oz. and the bar was on 4. I use the espro and tamp it twice. Of course, I would love to have good flavors. Is it easy to adjust the brew pressure? Or is it a hazzle?

This is a strange one. The volumetric flow should deliver the same amount of water every time. The difference in what you see in a shot glass should be the total amount dispensed less what gets absorbed by the grounds.

In your 2nd case it sounds like you blasted almost all the water straight through without the grounds absorbing much of anything. However, if that's true, that would mean that with the first shot the grounds absorbed 3.5oz of water. I don't believe that could be the case. I often overfill a triple basket with around 21g of coffee and that only absorbs 2oz of water.

So I'm a bit lost as to what is happening. How much water do you get dispensed without any coffee in the PF?

[MDL]

I find this completely unlike anything that I have ever seen. I would go back to square one and try changing one thing at a time. Set your volume so that it is large and play with stopping the shot manually. Then adjust the grind to get a pull that is the "ideal" volume in a reasonable time at a reasonable pressure.

I have never seen my pressure as low as 4 during a pull, even when I started and was not sure what I was doing.

[hlsheppard]

You'll definitely know when it's time to descale by the sound of the steam boiler, it starts to rattle and knock. In fact, it sounds like a set of Bongos. I've heard a scaled up S1 fire up and all I wanted to do was dance...

Not to thread-jack... but this comment scares me. I've used Chris's softener/filter system since day one and MY machine is noisy when I fire it up!!!

Only when I first turn it on though - not after it's heated... As it is heating the knocking sound isn't quite like bongos - but it does knock a bit. Am I in trouble?

[Aracel]

This is a strange one. The volumetric flow should deliver the same amount of water every time. The difference in what you see in a shot glass should be the total amount dispensed less what gets absorbed by the grounds.

In your 2nd case it sounds like you blasted almost all the water straight through without the grounds absorbing much of anything. However, if that's true, that would mean that with the first shot the grounds absorbed 3.5oz of water. I don't believe that could be the case. I often overfill a triple basket with around 21g of coffee and that only absorbs 2oz of water.

So I'm a bit lost as to what is happening. How much water do you get dispensed without any coffee in the PF?

ChrisCoffee told me to adjust the grind to a finer one, use the single spout PF with the double filter basket, 14 g of ground coffee. The 2 oz. should be filled in 25 to 27 seconds by pressing the double cup. It worked. I got 2 oz in 27 seconds. The problem must be with the grind when I changed coffee bean to a different brand. This must be stupidity on my part, but I thought all the time that when I press the double dose cup and using the double spout PF and 2 cups under the spout, I should be getting 2 oz of shot on each cup. Does this mean that if I'm using the single dose volumetric, I should get 1 oz of shot. I'm new in this espresso fanatic thing. Any comment is greatly apprecited. Thanks in advance.

[Aracel]

What are you using for a grinder?

I'm using Mazzer Mini E Type B. I had adjusted the grind and it worked. I used 14 g of ground coffee and the 2 oz cup was filled in 27 seconds.

[JohnB]

It really depends on how you set up the dose buttons. Mine haven't been factory since the second day I got the machine. I have the double button set for 2+oz & using it strictly for warm up flushes. My single button is set to 4 oz as I always cut the shot manually & don't want it cutting off. All my shots are pulled using the bottomless p/f.

It did eventually sound like a grind problem which is why I asked about the grinder. Since you were getting 9 bar with the blind basket incorrect pressure adjustment wasn't the issue.

There is a definite learning curve the first few weeks that can take the joy out of pulling shots but once you get it down you can relax & really start to enjoy having the machine.

[Aracel]

It really depends on how you set up the dose buttons. Mine haven't been factory since the second day I got the machine. I have the double button set for 2+oz & using it strictly for warm up flushes. My single button is set to 4 oz as I always cut the shot manually & don't want it cutting off. All my shots are pulled using the bottomless p/f.

It did eventually sound like a grind problem which is why I asked about the grinder. Since you were getting 9 bar with the blind basket incorrect pressure adjustment wasn't the issue.

Thanks a lot. The brew pressure is around 8.2 bar. I could not tell the exact number as the lever is quivering a little bit. If I grind finer, I get the 9 bar, but a little less than an oz in 25 secs. The shot pulling out was too tight. I used to cut the shot manually for 25 secs. The reason be that I set the double button for 25 secs; but when I pulled the shot, it's pulling more than 25 secs. Yesterday it is set for 27 secs. but this morning, the shot stopped at 22 secs. It's kind of strange. I don't know if it was caused by the way I tamped it since I was using the single spout PF. I might had tamped it unevenly. In other words, I might have put more pressure on the other side during tamping. If this persist, I might go back to cutting the shot manually.

[admin]

There's reason the term volumetric dosing is used. When you program the 1 cup and 2 cups buttons, you are programming for a specific volume. You are not programming for time.

If you let it go until the machine cuts off, it will dispense the same amount of water each time. Then the shot to shot difference in volume depends on how much gets absorbed by the grounds. The shot to shot difference in time depends on beans (type, roast, age), grind, and tamp.

A shot to shot difference in time of 22 - 27s is nothing. Now if you have a shot to shot difference from 15-45 seconds, then you should worry... but only if the results don't taste good.

The great thing about the S1/V2 is that your worst shot will most likely be better than the best shot you'll ever get at *$!

[JohnB]

I'm surprised that you are seeing such variation in brew pressure. Whether or not I grind a little too fine or coarse I always see the same 9bar on the gauge.

[Aracel]

I'm surprised that you are seeing such variation in brew pressure. Whether or not I grind a little too fine or coarse I always see the same 9bar on the gauge.

You're lucky that you get 9 bar all the time. Could it be because you have rotary pump while I have vive pump? Any input/comment from Mini Vivaldi II owners is appreciated. Thanks.

[Aracel]

There's reason the term volumetric dosing is used. When you program the 1 cup and 2 cups buttons, you are programming for a specific volume. You are not programming for time.

Thanks for the clarification.

[JohnB]

You're lucky that you get 9 bar all the time. Could it be because you have rotary pump while I have vive pump? Any input/comment from Mini Vivaldi II owners is appreciated. Thanks.

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe the vibe pump is more sensitive to puck density in this respect?

[iflawdya]

Just wondering if you solved your problem? I have a mini vivaldi vibe machine and experiencing the same problem. I spoke to Tim at Chris Coffee and he told me maybe my problem was my grind.The only way I seem to get to 9bar is choking out the machine. I have a Macap with doser. I cant figure it out. With the blind rubber stop in I get to 9.

[JohnB]

Just wondering if you solved your problem? I have a mini vivaldi vibe machine and experiencing the same problem. I spoke to Tim at Chris Coffee and he told me maybe my problem was my grind.The only way I seem to get to 9bar is choking out the machine. I have a Macap with doser. I cant figure it out. With the blind rubber stop in I get to 9.

Solved it a long time ago. If you are getting 9b with the blind stop then it has to be your grind. What is your zero point on your M4 & where are you grinding for Espresso?

[Endo]

Just wondering if you solved your problem? I have a mini vivaldi vibe machine and experiencing the same problem. I spoke to Tim at Chris Coffee and he told me maybe my problem was my grind.The only way I seem to get to 9bar is choking out the machine. I have a Macap with doser. I cant figure it out. With the blind rubber stop in I get to 9.

I have a Mini. It has an expansion valve and vibe pump (unlike the Maxi). You need to grind fine enough to open the valve to hit the target pressure, which is typically set at the factory at 9 bar. Since you say a blind basket registers 9 bar, I assume it is set correct. Grind finer, do a full dose (level it off before tamping and you should get 17g) and then tamp with 30lbs pressure (use a little nutation wiggle as well to really get in there). If it still doesn't give you 9 bar, try settling the grounds by tapping the PF on the table a few times while dosing.

These are not all great techniques (some promote channelling), but they WILL increase your pressure and increase shot times.

[iflawdya]

My zero is somewhere between 5 and 6 more towards 5 and im now grinding just over 7. If I go any finer I choke it out.
Right now it takes almost or close to 30 seconds to get 2oz with about 15 grams of coffee.

Thanks for the quick reply

[chas]

Just wondering if you solved your problem? I have a mini vivaldi vibe machine and experiencing the same problem. I spoke to Tim at Chris Coffee and he told me maybe my problem was my grind.The only way I seem to get to 9bar is choking out the machine. I have a Macap with doser. I cant figure it out. With the blind rubber stop in I get to 9.

Perhaps we should also ask the question a different way to be sure we understand exactly what is happening on your end.

If you grind and tamp so that you end up with 25-30sec to get 1.5-2.0oz, how many bars do you see on the gauge?

[iflawdya]

Watching the whole time the first few seconds is @ about 2 bar. Then it jumps to about 8bar and fluctuates between 7.5 and 8. I went just a notch finer on my grinder this morning and it took about 45 seconds for 20z shot. I am using Machritstay black pearl from Chris. My friend just bought the mini with rotary pump and his bar goes to 9 without a portafilter even locked in.

Thanks for all the help my wife wants to kill me..lol

[Aracel]

Just wondering if you solved your problem? I have a mini vivaldi vibe machine and experiencing the same problem. I spoke to Tim at Chris Coffee and he told me maybe my problem was my grind.The only way I seem to get to 9bar is choking out the machine. I have a Macap with doser. I cant figure it out. With the blind rubber stop in I get to 9.

Actually, I just did not bother looking at the bar for a while as long as my latte/cappuccino taste good, for me. Actually, sometimes, it takes over 30 seconds to finish. I did work on the grinder by cleaning it first and then adjusting the bar of the grinder. I believe, I got to the right setting of the grinder that I stopped looking at the bar of the S1. I will observe it today when I make my latte and will get back to you.

[iflawdya]

When I was at my friends house yesterday i was pulling shots and they were all at 9bar. He was even getting 9bar and has the worse tamp I have ever seen. lol. He has the same grinder as me also.

[Endo]

You have a Mini, so I'd try adjusting the OPV 1 bar higher and see what happens. The 9 bar you are measuring with the disk is STATIC so it may be actually opening earlier (7.5 or 8 bar) when flowing.

Just a thought. Only about 50% sure it will work, but worth a try.

[JohnB]

My zero is somewhere between 5 and 6 more towards 5 and im now grinding just over 7. If I go any finer I choke it out.
Right now it takes almost or close to 30 seconds to get 2oz with about 15 grams of coffee.

Thanks for the quick reply

What on the body are you aligning the numbered ring to when you see those numbers? Typically 7 would be a press pot grind & 3 would be in the espresso neighborhood on an M4. I made a line dead center on the worm adjuster body & aligned my settings with that.

[JohnB]

My friend just bought the mini with rotary pump and his bar goes to 9 without a portafilter even locked in.

Thanks for all the help my wife wants to kill me..lol

Mini with rotary pump? Did you mean the S1?

[Aracel]

Just wondering if you solved your problem? I have a mini vivaldi vibe machine and experiencing the same problem. I spoke to Tim at Chris Coffee and he told me maybe my problem was my grind.The only way I seem to get to 9bar is choking out the machine. I have a Macap with doser. I cant figure it out. With the blind rubber stop in I get to 9.

Actually, I just did not bother looking at the bar for a while as long as my latte/cappuccino taste good, for me. Actually, sometimes, it takes over 30 seconds to finish. I did work on the grinder by cleaning it first and then adjusting the bar of the grinder. I believe, I got to the right setting of the grinder that I stopped looking at the bar of the S1. I will observe it today when I make my latte and will get back to you.

I made my latte a while ago. The bar was on 9; and it took 38 seconds on 14 grams.

[iflawdya]

My zero is somewhere between 5 and 6 more towards 5 and im now grinding just over 7. If I go any finer I choke it out.
Right now it takes almost or close to 30 seconds to get 2oz with about 15 grams of coffee.

Thanks for the quick reply

What on the body are you aligning the numbered ring to when you see those numbers? Typically 7 would be a press pot grind & 3 would be in the espresso neighborhood on an M4. I made a line dead center on the worm adjuster body & aligned my settings with that.

I am aligning with the center of the chute. If i go any finer it will choke out the machine.
Yes I have an S1 mini Vivaldi my friend has an S1with the rotary pump. We both have the same grinder and mine is set a little more fine. He just brought his grinder up to Chris Coffee and Mary set it up for him. He had bought the Alex Duetto and it wasnt working right for him. I told him he should have bought the Vivaldi..lol. And he came home with 1.

[Endo]

I have an S1 mini Vivaldi my friend has an S1with the rotary pump.

Different animals. You adjust the pressure differently. You' may need to play with the OPV on your Mini to get things right. The rotary doesn't use an OPV.

[iflawdya]

Your right they are different animals. Just talked to Tim @Chris Coffee and told me I should be getting about 10 bar. So I will be making some adjustment to the valve. Some how between yesterday and today I managed to lose my backflush disc. Think my son must of ran off with it.
Thanks for all your help.

[chas]

Different animals. You adjust the pressure differently. You' may need to play with the OPV on your Mini to get things right. The rotary doesn't use an OPV.

It sort of does. It's just built right into the pump.

[chas]

Watching the whole time the first few seconds is @ about 2 bar. Then it jumps to about 8bar and fluctuates between 7.5 and 8. I went just a notch finer on my grinder this morning and it took about 45 seconds for 20z shot. I am using Machritstay black pearl from Chris. My friend just bought the mini with rotary pump and his bar goes to 9 without a portafilter even locked in.

Thanks for all the help my wife wants to kill me..lol

You don't happen to have the progressive preinfusion option on your machine, do you? If so, that 2 bar for the first fe seconds would be normal.

Yes, the rotary versions will show 9bar even w/o a PF in place. However, keep in mind that the tube that goes to the group pressure gauge is back in the plumbing between the pump and the group head, closer to the pump. There is certainly not actually 9bar at the group head. All the group pressure gauge can tell you in the pressure coming out of the pump. If you use a blind basket then you should get the exact same pressure at the group. With flow through the group there will be some pressure drop relative to the pump. You would really need a blind basket gizmo per Bob Roseman's ancient post that has a needle valve allowing 1.5-2oz of flow in 25-20sec to say for certain what the pressure on your puck really is.

Some folks may find this electronics model of the group plumbing to be easier to visualize. I do!

Consider a pump putting out 9bar equivalent to a voltage source putting out 9V in this example. The plumbing between the pump output and the group head is like a small series resistor. What is attached to the group - ranging from no PF to a properly packed PF - is like a 2nd series resistor or variable value with one end attached to the end of the 1st resistor (i.e.your group head) and the other end attached to ground (i.e. your shot glass). Assume a voltmeter attached to the voltage source. If you have no PF attached, this is like having a 2nd series resistor with no resistance (0 ohms). So the voltmeter measures 9V but the actually voltage at the other end of the resistor is zero. Consequently, using a voltmeter attached to the voltage source gives you a meaningless result if what you really want to know is the voltage between the two resistors (ie. same as pressure at the group). In the same way, an S1 showing 9bar with no PF attached is really getting 0bar at the group head. (Actually you probably have to remove the dispersion disk to truly have a 0bar analogy but we'll ignore that for this discussion)

Now if you add coffee properly tamped, that's analogous to having a high resistance for the 2nd resistor versus a low resistance for the 1st resistor. So if the resistance of the coffee is around 50x (or higher) compared to the resistance of the tubing, valves, etc, between the pump and the group head, then the pressure measured at the pump will essentially be the same as the pressure at the group.

So if your pump is powerful enough and you have a properly tamped puck, then two things should be true: 1) the group pressure gauge should not drop appreciably lower than the value set using a blind basket 2) the pressure at the puck should be essentially the same as that shown on the group pressure gauge. If #1 is not true, then having a properly tamped basket still should make the resistance to flow high enough that the group pressure is essentially the same as shown on the gauge. If you see your group pressure in this case drop lower than when you set it using a blind basket, I think your recourse is to use a blind basket to set your group pressure higher than you want it so that the group pressure when pulling a shot is where you want it.

[iflawdya]

If you see your group pressure in this case drop lower than when you set it using a blind basket, I think your recourse is to use a blind basket to set your group pressure higher than you want it so that the group pressure when pulling a shot is where you want it.

WOW. That was good and thanks for the information. What I did was exactly what you said in your last sentence. I used a blind basket and ajusted to 10 Bar. I pulled a shot and am now getting fluctuation between 8.5 and 9. I guess I will end there. Dont know for sure when this whole problem started but I will now keep an eye on it.

Thank you for all of your help.
Steve

[Endo]

You have a Mini, so I'd try adjusting the OPV 1 bar higher and see what happens. The 9 bar you are measuring with the disk is STATIC so it may be actually opening earlier (7.5 or 8 bar) when flowing.

You're welcome. Just tested mine too. Mine seems to be bang on at 9.6 bar static.

[oton]

What a long thread... and still I dont know what you did to avoid sour shots, JohnB. I have the same problem. To me all my shots tastes sour.. no matter if brew temp is 88ºC or 98ºC...

[Endo]

If you are new to espresso, it could be a LOT of things.

Can you take a video of your shot and post it on YouTube? That would speed up the process.

If not, explain in steps. Especially temp, pressures, dose, time, volume, grind.

[JohnB]

What a long thread... and still I dont know what you did to avoid sour shots, JohnB. I have the same problem. To me all my shots tastes sour.. no matter if brew temp is 88ºC or 98ºC...

As Endo said it could be lots of things. I reread the thread to try & refresh whats left of my memory but I think most of my problems were just Newbie related. I may have thought the pours looked good at the time but what the heck did I know. I'd never made an espresso in my life before mid December 07 so I had little to go on. Hell I wasn't even sure what a good espresso should taste like!

Getting rid of the saltiness in my water was a major break through. From there on out it was just a matter of improving my technique & learning to relax and enjoy the process. Soon I was actually getting the sweet cherry/chocolate from the old Black Cat that we all miss so much. I've tried the Barrington Gold once or twice since then & still don't care for it so that could have been part of the problem also.

If I were you I wouldn't beat myself up trying to get "2 oz in 25 seconds" if that's what you are shooting for. I seldom pull shots that fit that ideal. What are you using for espresso? Blend or S/O? Light/med/dark roast? How long past roast date?

[oton]

I'm waiting to recieve a naked PF, as soon as I get it I'll upload a video. (I know you like videos, Endo )

I know "2oz in 25 sec" it's a general advice and it really depends of much factors, however I'd like to establish a rule for this machine to get repeteability shots with good mouthfeel and taste.

The coffee I use right now I think it's the biggest problem. This is not U.S. with tons of coffee online sites. It's difficult to get real fresh coffee, and the people who sells it as "really fresh" are not 100% reliable for me. Can a packed coffee taste always sour no matter the temperature used?

[JohnB]

The coffee I use right now I think it's the biggest problem. This is not U.S. with tons of coffee online sites. It's difficult to get real fresh coffee, and the people who sells it as "really fresh" are not 100% reliable for me. Can a packed coffee taste always sour no matter the temperature used?

By "packed coffee" do you mean canned, pre ground?

[oton]

mmm... I mean the typical coffee (not preground) that you can buy in supermarket inside in bag with a co2 release valve which not indicate roast date but expiration date. I've even seen Blue Mountain in this way.

[Endo]

I had similar problems at the beginning with stale beans. Stuff in those grocery store bags can be months (years?) old and very stale.

If you can't buy fresh beans, you might want to consider a roaster. It's rather fun actually.

[JohnB]

mmm... I mean the typical coffee (not preground) that you can buy in supermarket inside in bag with a co2 release valve which not indicate roast date but expiration date. I've even seen Blue Mountain in this way.

As Endo said some/most/all of that coffee is stale. I've checked the date codes on some Peet's Coffee bags in our local supermarkets & found bags 9-12 months old. I wouldn't buy anything in a vavle bag more then 2 weeks past roast date.

[oton]

About the 2oz in 25 secs thing... When should I start to count 25 sec? Just when I push the start button or when the first drop of coffee falls? I have pre-infusion on my mini.. so pouring time should be longer?

I've read in chris coffee that preinfusion is set at 6 secs. How can I check this?

[Endo]

About the 2oz in 25 secs thing... When should I start to count 25 sec? Just when I push the start button or when the first drop of coffee falls? I have pre-infusion on my mini.. so pouring time should be longer?

I've read in chris coffee that preinfusion is set at 6 secs. How can I check this?

Not sure if there are any set rules. But with the p/i, I aim for about 30 seconds from the time I press the button. I find anything from 25 up to 45 seconds can taste good. I often go close to 40 with tight ristrettos.

You need to forget the watch and stop when it goes blond.