The S1 Cafe - Helping Your Espresso Dreams Become Reality

what is the size of the portafilter or will the new machine be able to use vst baskets

will the machine be able to do pressure profiling

will the brew temperature be in 1 degree or less F increments

I know now you can turn off the boiler using the boiler icon, but will you also be able to shut off the steam boiler when run on the timer as a single boiler machine (for us daily espresso folks, who make milk drinks only at dinner parties)? In other words, no go back to "both boilers" by default every time it is turned off.

Will it be available in both pourover and plumbed?

Other than the PID, are there any significant internal changes from the V2?

MonkeyK wrote:Other than the PID, are there any significant internal changes from the V2?

Remember, a PID only gets you to the water setpoint accurately. Once you start making shots, brew temp stability is more driven by the overall design (i.e. grouphead design, etc). Anyone who has used Scace device can relate. In other words, don't expect to taste any difference in taste.

Endo wrote:

MonkeyK wrote:Other than the PID, are there any significant internal changes from the V2?

Remember, a PID only gets you to the water setpoint accurately. Once you start making shots, brew temp stability is more driven by the overall design (i.e. grouphead design, etc). Anyone who has used Scace device can relate. In other words, don't expect to taste any difference in taste.

I don't expect better taste from the PID. I am asking questons about the new machine.

I chatted with Chris for about 30 minutes this morning. Here is the info I received.

1) The machine will actually be sold as the LaSpaziale Dream Espresso, not S1 V3! It will definitely be on sale in time to have under your Christmas Holiday tree. Both plumbed and Mini versions will be sold on day 1.
2) Colors - Shiny black or Ferrari Red. For the latter the entire drip tray will also be red.
3) Dual PIDs - Temp for steam and group boilers is directly settable, no pressure stats.
While customers can play with the three settings for each PID, if desired, these PID settings are password protected and not provided with the machine. Customers will need to call tech Jason at CC to obtain PW. There will be a factory reset option if PID settings get royally hosed up.
4) Software upgrades will be done via files uploaded from SD Cards. It will require an SD Card reader that plugs into the "USB" port on the front of the machine. However, there is more intelligence in the reader than in a normal SD-USB reader like you can buy at Amazon/Best Buy/Radio Shack. It requires a special LaSpaziale reader which will be supplied with each machine. However, you can insert the SD Card into a standard reader attached to your PC or MAC in order to write new The Dream software files onto the card, but it will require the LaSpaz supplied adapter to upload the file into the machine.
5) The new internal timer will have the same capabilities as the external timer; i.e. three ON/Off times per day with a completely different schedule each day optional.
6) Hot water can be continuous using on/off button like the current generation works OR volumetrically controlled. Hot Water temp is controlled via the Steam boiler PID.
7) The pressure gauge will revert to a round gauge that shows only steam boiler pressure but it is a different and easier to read gauge than the one used on the original S1. The group pressure is displayed on the LCD panel to the tenth of a bar while the shot is being pulled along with the shot time.
As previously noted the ability to display Fahrenheit has been added and it is the default. Chris things it is still possible to switch back to Celsius.
9) Up to four shot profiles can be saved. This will include all the shot times and preinfusion times for the one and two cup buttons and the volumetric time for the hot water. Not yet sure if any other settings are saved in the profile. Users can select their profile via menu selection when they walk up to the machine.
10) As might be expected there is a decent but not unreasonable price bump on the plumbed and Mini Dreams versus the current V2 models. Therefore, both the V2 machines will continue to be sold.
11) I noted that the pressure gauge seems to be mounted to the front panel as well as the USB port and the two LED lights. Since the current front panel design is just sheet metal that is easy to remove when adjusting the pump pressure and performing other maintenance, I asked if the multiple attached parts will cause problems on The Dream. Chris says that the pressure gauge uses a flexible tube rather than the current copper tubing and the USB parts and LEDs have a cable arrangement with plenty of slack so that front access remains easy with The Dream. Chris stated that the new design for the boiler pressure gauge will resolve the issue where the current pressure gauge often pops out of place during shipment.
12) Boilers are the exact same design as well as the 53mm group.

michael wrote:what is the size of the portafilter or will the new machine be able to use vst baskets

Still 53mm, so no

michael wrote:will the machine be able to do pressure profiling

No

michael wrote:will the brew temperature be in 1 degree or less F increments

down to tenths of 1F or 1C, if preferred.

Endo wrote:You hinted at it on the facebook page but didn't get a clear answer.

So what are all these strange looking icons (both in the panel and around the panel). Why do so many look like clocks? What's the "surrender" flag for? Is that for when problems occur?

Chris said he had a bad cold when the LaSpaz guy was there and missed what all the home screen icons are for. So still something to be researched.

MonkeyK wrote:Will it be available in both pourover and plumbed?

Both

MonkeyK wrote:Other than the PID, are there any significant internal changes from the V2?

No,other than the PIDs its mostly control and User Interface changes.

chas wrote:George, I am going to kick this off with a question. You replied back to my comment on the Dream Machine FB page yesterday that the pictured machine is only a prototype and the final version will have the V2's rectangle dual manometer rather than the pictured V1 round single manometer. Chris also e-mailed me that the boiler pressure will be shown digitally on the front panel. So is it correct that the boiler pressure will be indicated on both the dual manometer and on the front panel in the production version?

Chris corrected the misperception. It will be a round gauge that just shows steam boiler pressure. Group pressure is shown continuously on the LCD panel (plus shot time) during a shot to the nearest tenth of a bar.

thanks chas

any chance of getting some better baskets for the 53mm size; that would be great

chas wrote: 6) Hot water can be continuous using on/off button like the current generation works OR volumetrically controlled. Hot Water temp is controlled via the Steam boiler PID.

Won't the hot water tap always be exactly the same temperature, ~211 F ? Unless of course you set the PID to below boiling. . .

I realize this is a little pedantic but some machines have cold-water mixing valves to actually set the temp of the water tap. . .

hamish5178 wrote:

chas wrote: 6) Hot water can be continuous using on/off button like the current generation works OR volumetrically controlled. Hot Water temp is controlled via the Steam boiler PID.

Won't the hot water tap always be exactly the same temperature, ~211 F ? Unless of course you set the PID to below boiling. . .

I realize this is a little pedantic but some machines have cold-water mixing valves to actually set the temp of the water tap. . .

Very probably. Since there is no cold water mixing valve, you are going to set the boiler temp for adequate steaming and then live with whatever you get for hot water temp. For those that want to use hot water regularly but don't make milk drinks, the temp could be turned down to 190F, for example.

chas wrote:George, I am going to kick this off with a question. You replied back to my comment on the Dream Machine FB page yesterday that the pictured machine is only a prototype and the final version will have the V2's rectangle dual manometer rather than the pictured V1 round single manometer. Chris also e-mailed me that the boiler pressure will be shown digitally on the front panel. So is it correct that the boiler pressure will be indicated on both the dual manometer and on the front panel in the production version?

Boiler pressure sensor? Really? That sounds complicated and unreliable.

Also, I heard many rumors of pressure profiling on other forums. Once again, sounds very complicated to me. I have a hard time believing this. Can you confirm?

Endo wrote:

chas wrote:George, I am going to kick this off with a question. You replied back to my comment on the Dream Machine FB page yesterday that the pictured machine is only a prototype and the final version will have the V2's rectangle dual manometer rather than the pictured V1 round single manometer. Chris also e-mailed me that the boiler pressure will be shown digitally on the front panel. So is it correct that the boiler pressure will be indicated on both the dual manometer and on the front panel in the production version?

Boiler pressure sensor? Really? That sounds complicated and unreliable.

Also, I heard many rumors of pressure profiling on other forums. Once again, sounds very complicated to me. I have a hard time believing this. Can you confirm?

Endo, I corrected this with information from Chris in the lengthy post below. There will be a single round manometer (just as shown in the Dream photos) like the S1 but a better quality gauge for steam boiler pressure. Group pressure to the tenth bar will be shown on the LCD panel along with shot time while a shot is in progress. So they are only substituting an on- screen pressure display for an analog pressure gauge. There is no notion that this provides any capability to profile; i.e. manually or otherwise changing the pressure during a shot except of course for the programmable preinfusion.

chas wrote:Endo, I corrected this with information from Chris in the lengthy post below. There will be a single round manometer (just as shown in the Dream photos) like the S1 but a better quality gauge for steam boiler pressure. Group pressure to the tenth bar will be shown on the LCD panel along with shot time while a shot is in progress. So they are only substituting an on- screen pressure display for an analog pressure gauge. There is no notion that this provides any capability to profile; i.e. manually or otherwise changing the pressure during a shot except of course for the programmable preinfusion.

That's what I suspected. Pressure profiling sounded like a longshot.

Still, I'm surprised they added a pressure gauge in the brew boiler. Just seems like something to mislead users (like the current brew gauge). Imagine all the calls? "My gauge only says 7.5 bar and the Nespresso machines go to 15 bar. My machine broken?"

Besides that, these sensors are very unreliable. If your are not pressure profiling, then what's the point (except to verify your pre-infusion settings). Seems very silly to me.

Endo wrote:

chas wrote:Endo, I corrected this with information from Chris in the lengthy post below. There will be a single round manometer (just as shown in the Dream photos) like the S1 but a better quality gauge for steam boiler pressure. Group pressure to the tenth bar will be shown on the LCD panel along with shot time while a shot is in progress. So they are only substituting an on- screen pressure display for an analog pressure gauge. There is no notion that this provides any capability to profile; i.e. manually or otherwise changing the pressure during a shot except of course for the programmable preinfusion.

That's what I suspected. Pressure profiling sounded like a longshot.

Still, I'm surprised they added a pressure gauge in the brew boiler. Just seems like something to mislead users (like the current brew gauge). Imagine all the calls? "My gauge only says 7.5 bar and the Nespresso machines go to 15 bar. My machine broken?"

Besides that, these sensors are very unreliable. If your are not pressure profiling, then what's the point (except to verify your pre-infusion settings). Seems very silly to me.

Sorry incorrect verbiage on my part. The group pressure is, I assume, picked off exactly the same place it is on the current V2 and V2 Mini, just after the output of the pump. So it is giving pump pressure not group boiler pressure. The difference is that they'll attach a digital pressure transducer there instead of the copper capillary tube that currently routes to the analog gauge. I think a better location for the digital transducer would actually be that port on the side of the group where the mechanical preinfusion device attaches, but they need to still leave that open for use on the Mini. So I imagine they'll just use the current location close to the pump on both Dream and Mini-Dream (if that's what they call the tank version) outlet.

chas wrote: Sorry incorrect verbiage on my part. The group pressure is, I assume, picked off exactly the same place it is on the current V2 and V2 Mini, just after the output of the pump. So it is giving pump pressure not group boiler pressure. The difference is that they'll attach a digital pressure transducer there instead of the copper capillary tube that currently routes to the analog gauge. I think a better location for the digital transducer would actually be that port on the side of the group where the mechanical preinfusion device attaches, but they need to still leave that open for use on the Mini. So I imagine they'll just use the current location close to the pump on both Dream and Mini-Dream (if that's what they call the tank version) outlet.

Like you, I thought they would add the pressure transducer on the grouphead. But teeing it off the pump is good enough. I assume it will be something like this:

http://www.omega.com/pptst/PX209_PX219.html

Low MTBF would be my only worry.

Still, seems like TMI to me (Too Much Information). Timer counting down, pressure ramping up, temperature dropping, naked PF to watch. I think they should change the name to the "Screen Machine".

Seriously though. Looks like a great machine. No real plumbing changes at all. But still some nice cosmetics changes and a good electronics upgrade none-the-less.

Will the drip tray be fixed so a proper drain can be attached?

Endo wrote:Will the drip tray be fixed so a proper drain can be attached?

The only change Chris mentioned was the all red drip tray if you get the Ferrari red model.

Will the warranty still be 2 years on this new model?

chas wrote:For those that want to use hot water regularly but don't make milk drinks, the temp could be turned down to 190F, for example.

Since hot water is dispensed by steam pressure, the steam boiler temperature must be above the boiling point for water to be dispensed. Given the absence of a mixing valve, there will always be flash boiling when water exits the hot water tap and it will always be just below the boiling point.

Unless I'm missing something, of course, which is always possible.

Richard wrote:

chas wrote:For those that want to use hot water regularly but don't make milk drinks, the temp could be turned down to 190F, for example.

Since hot water is dispensed by steam pressure, the steam boiler temperature must be above the boiling point for water to be dispensed. Given the absence of a mixing valve, there will always be flash boiling when water exits the hot water tap and it will always be just below the boiling point.

Unless I'm missing something, of course, which is always possible.

It may not come out very fast but it should flow. If there is enough pressure built up to close the vacuum breaker there will be enough to start pushing it out. If not then air will flow into the vacuum breaker and let water start siphoning out. When the pump kicks in that should force the rest of the required water out.

I think we need to change the topic to "Ask Chas".

Here's another question: What's the purpose of the groupheater cover, and is it made of chromed plastic as it appears?

Endo wrote:I think we need to change the topic to "Ask Chas".

Here's another question: What's the purpose of the group heater cover, and is it made of chromed plastic as it appears?

Endo, I am starting to think you are correct. It looks like I may have to forward questions to Chris or George. In spite of earlier indications to the contrary it doesn't seem that George is going to be logging in regularly to answer questions. I have also noticed that when I ask George and Chris the same questions I don't necessarily get the same answers. Example, I asked what the full Dream and Mini would be called. Chris says they are referring to them as The Dream and The Dream Mini. George says they will be sold as The Dream and The Dream T as in Tank. Of course it may be possible that they are both correct. Perhaps Chris noted what they currently refer to them as internally and what George noted is what they will actually be sold as.

At first I didn't know what you were talking about after not having an S1 for almost three years. However, I compared the Dream photos with others of the V1 and V2 groups and now I see the new "collar" around the top of the group that you mentioned. I don't see how a part in that location could be plastic. I assume chromed brass like the rest of the group, but I'll ask.

chas wrote:At first I didn't know what you were talking about after not having an S1 for almost three years. However, I compared the Dream photos with others of the V1 and V2 groups and now I see the new "collar" around the top of the group that you mentioned. I don't see how a part in that location could be plastic. I assume chromed brass like the rest of the group, but I'll ask.

The new Silvia has the same thing. I'm actually almost sure it's chromed plastic. Some people won't like that since it hides some nice "real" metal. They may claim it keeps in some heat.

I never found Chris to be a S1 fanboy like us. It's all about business with him and his gang. That's fine. We'll keep guessing.

Endo wrote:

chas wrote:At first I didn't know what you were talking about after not having an S1 for almost three years. However, I compared the Dream photos with others of the V1 and V2 groups and now I see the new "collar" around the top of the group that you mentioned. I don't see how a part in that location could be plastic. I assume chromed brass like the rest of the group, but I'll ask.

The new Silvia has the same thing. I'm actually almost sure it's chromed plastic. Some people won't like that since it hides some nice "real" metal. They may claim it keeps in some heat.

I never found Chris to be a S1 fanboy like us. It's all about business with him and his gang. That's fine. We'll keep guessing.

Chris says he's pretty sure it's not chromed plastic, but he's not really sure what it's made of.

Endo wrote:Will the warranty still be 2 years on this new model?

Yes

Endo wrote:Will the drip tray be fixed so a proper drain can be attached?

No, exact same drip tray, except for the Ferrari red machine which will have a red drip tray. (One the S1V1 and S1V2 the drip tray was always black regardless of the color of the side panels.)

chas wrote:

Endo wrote:

chas wrote:At first I didn't know what you were talking about after not having an S1 for almost three years. However, I compared the Dream photos with others of the V1 and V2 groups and now I see the new "collar" around the top of the group that you mentioned. I don't see how a part in that location could be plastic. I assume chromed brass like the rest of the group, but I'll ask.

The new Silvia has the same thing. I'm actually almost sure it's chromed plastic. Some people won't like that since it hides some nice "real" metal. They may claim it keeps in some heat.

I never found Chris to be a S1 fanboy like us. It's all about business with him and his gang. That's fine. We'll keep guessing.

Chris says he's pretty sure it's not chromed plastic, but he's not really sure what it's made of.

I just heard from Chris. He went into the showroom this morning and confirmed that the new group collar is metal and NOT plastic.

chas wrote: I just heard from Chris. He went into the showroom this morning and confirmed that the new group collar is metal and NOT plastic.

Wow. I'm surprised. Must be a pricey. If it's metal, it might have some good heat retention properties to it. Perhaps I can add it on to my machine to warm up the cold nose.

chas wrote:

Richard wrote:

chas wrote:For those that want to use hot water regularly but don't make milk drinks, the temp could be turned down to 190F, for example.

Since hot water is dispensed by steam pressure, the steam boiler temperature must be above the boiling point for water to be dispensed. Given the absence of a mixing valve, there will always be flash boiling when water exits the hot water tap and it will always be just below the boiling point.

Unless I'm missing something, of course, which is always possible.

It may not come out very fast but it should flow. If there is enough pressure built up to close the vacuum breaker there will be enough to start pushing it out. If not then air will flow into the vacuum breaker and let water start siphoning out. When the pump kicks in that should force the rest of the required water out.

There won't be enough pressure for the vacuum breaker to close at 190F, it closes after the water boils and starts releasing steam, that's how pressure builds. A boiler full of hot water won't just close the valve. . .