Temperature offset

[Richard]

Edited by author.

[Niko]

I can run some tests with the video camera running if you'd like, Richard.

[Richard]

I can run some tests with the video camera running if you'd like, Richard.

I don't know that the video is necessary, but I am interested in knowing how the temperature at the Scace device compares with the temperature settings on the control panel; obviously the temperature offset is an important part of the equation, too.

Thanks for the offer!

I get the impression there aren't many of these Scace devices in the hands of Spaziale owners. I must say that through observation, now, I am impressed with three things vis-a-vis temperatures: (1) stability for the duration of a shot; (2) shot-to-shot repeatability; and (3) the clear need for at least one and even two warm-up shots when the machine has been idling.

[ebprod]

When you say that there should be 1-2 warm-up shots, are those blank shots, or is it necessary to use coffee to gain the stability?

-Joe

3) the clear need for at least one and even two warm-up shots when the machine has been idling.

[Richard]

When you say that there should be 1-2 warm-up shots, are those blank shots, or is it necessary to use coffee to gain the stability?

-Joe

3) the clear need for at least one and even two warm-up shots when the machine has been idling.

I prefer to drink the coffee rather than use it for warm-up shots.

[Niko]

I have no problem posting a video.
I pretty much video everything out of laziness sometimes...think about it, you can take all the notes in the world but a picture is worth a thousand words and video is more than one frame...

I'm currently running Scace tests as I write this.
Stay tuned kids.

[Niko]

SCACE TESTS:

wforum/viewtopic.php?t=571

[ebprod]

Actually, what I meant was should the first shots be just water, without the coffee loaded into the basket.

-Joe

When you say that there should be 1-2 warm-up shots, are those blank shots, or is it necessary to use coffee to gain the stability?

-Joe

3) the clear need for at least one and even two warm-up shots when the machine has been idling.

I prefer to drink the coffee rather than use it for warm-up shots.

[Richard]

wforum/viewtopic.php?t=571

Thank you for posting the videos of your temperature measurements. You're getting essentially the same temperatures in the portafilter that are set on the control panel. Looks like it's time for me to write a note to the vendor and see what's up with that.

[Richard]

Actually, what I meant was should the first shots be just water, without the coffee loaded into the basket.

Niko's video answers that question. It's a very accurate display of the effect of warm-up shots. The 94 C. setting on the control panel is 201 Fahrenheit (the Fluke thermometer is displaying in Fahrenheit).

There is a flow restrictor in the thermofilter that releases ca 2 oz in 30 seconds, roughly mimicking the effect of a cake of coffee. But from personal observation, I don't believe it makes much difference, if any, vis-a-vis the effect of the warm-up shot(s) on boiler temperature stability. I've followed Niko's procedure and also have pulled the Scace thermofilter (preheated, of course) out of the group for the warm-up shots, immediately locking it back in and then measuring the temperature of the next shot. I find the difference between warm-up with the thermofilter locked in and warm-up with the thermofilter removed to be negligible.

But regardless, I wouldn't put coffee in the basket. That would mean wasting a shot, not to mention the aggravation of cleaning and reloading the basket. No way. There is a school of thought "out there" which says leave the old spent puck in the portafilter and use it for a warmup shot. Maybe that makes some sense in a busy commercial environment, but I can't imagine it at home. It may be several hours before I pull another shot, by which time cleaning that nasty old coffee puck out of there would be troubling, not to mention the additional baked-on accumulation of coffee oils on the group.

[EricC]

Looks like it's time for me to write a note to the vendor and see what's up with that.

Hi Richard,

Did you ever get a response about the offset problem?

Regards
Eric

[Richard]

Edited by author.

[chas]

Wow, that's surprising information. I'll have to try that out of curiosity. This is the first I've ever heard that the VII can be switched into S1 mode.

I borrowed a Scace several months back and found that my VII was 2C low with the offset set to 0C. However, I also tested using my jury rig setup with the same TC probe stuck up through a hole drilled in the bottom of a single PF. With this setup I used a circle of sponge to simulate the puck and the TC probe ends up in the middle of the sponge puck and flush with the surface.

Measurements with my poor man's "Scace" are right on the money. I'm not sure why this would read 2C higher than the real Scace. I went back and forth between these setups and the readings with each were pretty consistent.

[coffeeowl]

(...)
To change from VII mode into VI mode:
(...)
To change from VI mode back into VII mode:
(...)
To verify what programming mode the machine is in:
(...)

Wow!

Oh Mummy! That's why La Spaziale supplied me also with the Vivaldi I lights label! (link)


EDIT:
I put the instructions that appeared in Richard's original post, but then I was aksed by him to remove it and so I did.
However I'm sure that it will be findable in google for at least 2 months since now :D

[chas]

I verified that the instructions for getting a VII into and out of S1 mode work exactly as Richard documented it. I'll have to post this on the VII site for posterity.

I'm not sure I'll ever need to use this mode but it is way cool to know they've designed the firmware this way. It's like the espresso machine equivalent of an "Easter Egg"!

You don't suppose LaSpaz is still selling devices as S1s that really have this same controller board and can be put into VII mode??? I got one of the first VIIs while they were still using up the drip trays that's didn't have the VII logo on them. So in theory, one could say that I have a S1modB that has been put into VII mode!! :?

[Weska]

I checked my S1, which was assembled May 2006 and must have been among the last of its kind. There was no hidden VII programability. (Sniff!)

[chas]

The VII started shipping in 12/06 so I would suspect whatever S1s there maybe out there that have a hidden VII mode would have been manufactured since then.

[Niko]

I hooked up my S1 in July '06...
maybe it's one of them.
That would be very funny

[EricC]

Thanks Richard,

That is very handy to know.

[coffeeowl]

Well... I don't know what happened here... Richard's post are blank. Does anyone have a copy of the way of turning Vivaldi II into Vivaldi I mode? Please...

EDIT: ok, I found it in google... uffff!

[JohnB]

What is the benefit of putting the V2 into V1 mode? What exactly changes? Temp adjustment?

[Niko]

Perhaps the larger temp range?
85-120C is what the older machine does and with the fine adjustments you can go 82-123 (I think) but I'm not in front of my S1 at the moment.
Is this an advantage? - No.
I like the VII temp range better even though it's limited when compared to the older unit.

Who on earth would need 248F water??

[JohnB]

How could you use that range on the V2 with only 7 temp choices. Would each one represent 5*C when the V2 is in V1 mode? If so it would be handy for a V2 already at 0* offset that wasn't reaching the proper brew temp at the P/F.??

[EricC]

How could you use that range on the V2 with only 7 temp choices. Would each one represent 5*C when the V2 is in V1 mode? If so it would be handy for a V2 already at 0* offset that wasn't reaching the proper brew temp at the P/F.??

If you look at the sticker that goes under the lights on the S1 VI, you will see that the mesurement steps are indeed 5degC (coarse) with another option for fine ( 1degC ) available through certain button pushes.

See here : http://www.rimpo.org/s1/S1Pix/S1%20Incr ... ol%20B.pdf

Regards
Eric

[JohnB]

This should be called the amazing disappearing thread. Last night the How To was here & today its gone.

Chas - Did you ever add them to your site or is there some reason we aren't supposed to see them in print?

Can someone post a link to the info as Google isn't cooperating.

[admin]

If for some reason the operation of your VII doesn't seem to be correct and the temperatures appears to be way off from what you have set, you may have inadvertently gotten your VII set to S1 mode. Verify your machine is in the correct mode with the test below.

If you unplug your VII, when you first plug it back in, the three yellow lights should blink once. This indicates that the VII is in VII mode.

With the VII in standby, press and hold the hot water button for about 10 seconds, the three green lights will blink once which indicates the unit is now in S1 mode. In this mode the LEDs will have the same meaning as on the original S1. Check out the S1 User's Manual on the S1 Web Site for the definition of the LEDs in that mode.

If you repeat the process above, the three yellow lights will blink indicating that the VII is back in VII mode.

If in doubt as to which mode you are in, just unplug the V2 and then plug back in to see if the 3 yellow or 3 green lamps blink once.

[JohnB]

Thank you!

[Niko]

Excellent...
now if you'll excuse me gentlemen, I have a VII to turn into an S1

[chas]

Over the holiday's I readjusted everything on my VII with the help of a Scace device. I found that while I had the Offset at 0C, it really needed to be at -2C. The taste improvement was startling. The last few weeks I started to wonder why is wasn't tasting as good again. Which leads me into today's story.

I'm putting together a spreadsheet that summarizes all the various setup button press options to post on the VII website. It's actually useful for the S1 as well. While testing out all the combinations to see if I had written everything down correctly, I noticed something about the VII-S1-VII mode switch that I hadn't noticed the previous times I had tried it.

The fine temp adjustment in S1 mode and the offset adjustment in VII mode are lost when you change modes. So when I went to S1 mode and back to VII mode, my offset had defaulted to 0C. This seems to be the only setting that is not sticky across mode switches.

Consequently, my Offset had reverted to 0C where the flavor was off and I had to reset it to -2C.

[coffeeowl]

Chas,
I think it's pretty reasonable for the machine to behave that way. otherwise it would need to have a separate memories for each mode or the offsets would have to be 'translated' from one mode to the other one... that would put the user to a guessing game anyway.
By the way, did you measure if the delta changes back to 1C in the S1 mode or remains 0.5C? I was planning to check it (by measuring the time the unit cycles in both modes), but I haven't played with changing the modes yet.

[JohnB]

Since my V2 was set up by CC with 0*C offset I guess I've got one less thing to think about when I switch modes. :D

[chas]

Chas,
I think it's pretty reasonable for the machine to behave that way. otherwise it would need to have a separate memories for each mode or the offsets would have to be 'translated' from one mode to the other one... that would put the user to a guessing game anyway.
By the way, did you measure if the delta changes back to 1C in the S1 mode or remains 0.5C? I was planning to check it (by measuring the time the unit cycles in both modes), but I haven't played with changing the modes yet.

I don't disagree that it is reasonable for the machine to behave that way. But it did surprise me that the main set temp remembers. Well not exactly remembers. Whatever the main temp LED is on in one mode, that LED and whatever temp is represents is on after you switch modes. I was thinking that the main temp would probably switch to a default temp as well.

[mgwolf]

I think I hosed my factory offset setting. I was fooling around and checking that my machine was in VII mode (it was) and a few days later, read Chas' post about the programming reverting back to default 0 offset if you switch modes. Guess what my offset is now? -- 0 degrees. And I have no idea what Chris' Coffee set it too before shipping. Do you suppose they keep records of this type of stuff? The only way to recalibrate the offset, I'm assuming, is to use a Scace unit (which I don't own). Sigh. Michael

[chas]

If you checked the mode you were in by unplugging the machine, plugging it back it, and seeing which set of lights blinked, you are OK. It this case your offset would be unchanged. But if you checked the mode you're in by changing to the other mode, then you have indeed hosed your offset.

Virtually all shipped units have the offset set to 0. -1, or -2 so I am told. So you can alway set it to -1C and feel confident that you are no more than 1C off.

[mgwolf]

Unfortunately, I actually flipped back and forth between old and new modes by accident. I suppose I can set if for -1 offset. Or, god forbid, I will have to eschew all the high tech stuff and be guided by taste! It does tick me off though. Michael

[Richard]

Guess what my offset is now? -- 0 degrees. And I have no idea what Chris' Coffee set it too before shipping. Do you suppose they keep records of this type of stuff? The only way to recalibrate the offset, I'm assuming, is to use a Scace unit (which I don't own). Sigh. Michael

This is precisely the reason I pulled from sight and now regret ever having posted the instructions for flip-flopping between VI and VII modes. Regrettably, it's now "out there" and beyond my control. You are exactly correct: without a Scace device or a functional equivalent, there is no way to properly calibrate the offset except by taste.

Unless you have the proper tools upfront -- and that means the Scace device -- there is good reason to never ever fool with those VII-to-VI settings.

[Niko]

This is precisely the reason I pulled from sight and now regret ever having posted the instructions for flip-flopping between VI and VII modes. Regrettably, it's now "out there" and beyond my control. You are exactly correct: without a Scace device or a functional equivalent, there is no way to properly calibrate the offset except by taste.

Unless you have the proper tools upfront -- and that means the Scace device -- there is good reason to never ever fool with those VII-to-VI settings.

I couldn't agree with you more, Richard. I thought that's why the posts vanished

[JohnB]

One of the first things I did AFTER reading the manuals that came with my machine is check to see what my offset was. I imagine I'm not the only owner to do this & I would advise anyone who hasn't done this to follow the steps in the manual & make note of their offset. Personally I think that it is very cool that we have the ability to switch back & forth between modes so I'm glad the instructions are out there.

[coffeeowl]

I was thinking that the main temp would probably switch to a default temp as well.

Yes, that's what I thought it does...

[mgwolf]

Hello again. I do seem to remember reading something about RTFM first. Actually, I did read it, but had forgotten that the offset info was in there. I spoke with Tim at Chris' service dept today. He said he had fooled around with the programming before and did not think the offset reset itself to default. But also, he said that the Mini's, for some reason, have all arrived with accurate offsets at 0 degrees. He said he hasn't had to reset any of the Minis yet -- they're all zero. The regular V2's could be needing 0, 1, or 2 degrees offset. Michael