HotTop or Gene Cafe?

[Niko]

It's a tough decision between these two roasters.
Besides, I'm getting sick of the iRoast2 and I'm sure it's tired of me. My neighbors must really love me, they probably think I'm running a shop vac all the time. This thing is so loud, I use noise cancelling earphones with an iPod so I don't have to hear it. Only problem is that I can't hear 1st crack so I ditched the music and braved the 747 jet in the kitchen. The other major problem for me is the batch size, it's simply too small so I have to roast like 10 times a week.
Any Gene Cafe users out there? Tell me what you think, looks like it has more intuative controls than the Hottop but I hear the cooling stinks. I also hear nice stuff about the Hottop as well, it's been out longer so there's more feedback on it. The cooling is supposed to be better than the Gene Cafe but there's just so little feedback on the Gene.

[admin]

I'd never heard of the Gene Cafe before so I checked out the review on Sweet Marias. Sounds like a nice machine. I have the Hottop. I was an early adopter of that as I was with the S1. I even upgraded the original version with the new digital front panel.

I must say that the cooling tray on the HT is great. When you dump a roast it stops roasting at that instant. There is no second guessing on when to stop your roast due to it coasting farther as the Gene and most air roasters do.

Nothing has broken on mine in 3 1/2 years of use with about 3-4 batches a week. There is the expense of the filters which can be cleaned a couple of times before replacement. Should it be necessary, replacement parts are easy to get.

[bassface]

I'm using the Iroar 2 and I'm replacing it with the Hottop. The new programable version will be out in 4 weeks according to them.Both the analog and digital display models will be upgradeable to the new model.

I've had good but difficult to repeat results with the I Roast. I'm hoping this will change with the Hottop


bob

[bassface]

So, I'm interested in members' experience with making their own espresso blends.

I'm working on a blend that is about 40% Brazilain Fazenda from SM, 20% Malabar Gold from CW, 20% El Salvadoran "Monteleon" from CW and 20% Ethiopian Harrar from SM or CW (SM is currently out but they have some other fruity Ethiopians).

It's worked out good--not sure on all the proportions yet. I want to try a melange of some of the beans too. I've been told to keep the roast levels pretty close between the same beans. Anyone have experience with a melange?

I'm kind of on hold since I figure everything will change when my Hottop arrives.



bob

[bassface]

So all our previous posts went to ristretto heaven? Looks like everyone's avatar did too--even from posts before the last backup.


How is the Smith farms Kona? How does it compare to the SM offerings like Moki's Farm (which I really like). SM has no Kona in stock so I'm thinking of trying out the Smith farms. Has anyone tried it as a SO espresso or only as part of a blend. My experience with Kona is that it doesn't stand alone so well in Espresso.

Other experiences?



bob

[chas]

I'm glad you had to upload a new avatar. I'll never look at your Username and think "fish face" again

I highly recommend Smith Farm's Kona. Both the product and the buying experience are great. Cea Smith is wonderful to deal with. However, for espresso I prefer a 50-50 blend of SF Kona and Monsooned Malabar. You still get all the aroma of the Kona but the MM tones down the brightness a notch.

[Niko]

You're not kidding about the "FishFace".
I seriously was thinking the same thing all along!
So apparently there's a new Hottop coming out with a programmable console? Hmm. I think I'm leaning away from the Gene Cafe now, I don't like the cooling and the glass drum. Everything else about it seems nice though.

I wanted to call the iRoast2 the "iRoar" as well. I didn't think it was a nice thing to say since it's been doing a great job for me so far. I'd highly recommend it to anyone but it does stink when it comes to repeat results but I think that's to be expected in roasting, you have to know the sights, sound and smells to really get repeat quality.

[chas]

I've got to get this upgrade for my Hottop! It sounds like this will be a real sweet ride.

http://www.hottopusa.com/news.html

[Niko]

WOW!!
That's it, you made my mind up.
I'm getting, I mean waiting for that new Hottop.
WooHoo!!
What's especially nice about the Hottop is the way you can keep up with their simple hardware/software upgrades like that for a mere fraction of the cost of the whole roaster.

If only epsresso machines were the same...

[admin]

My last front panel upgrade was $125. I suspect this one will be pricier.

Actually, I've already upgraded the unit twice. The first time was a free firmware upgrade to fix an issue. The second was going from the original panel to the current one that has the temperature display. However, this new upgrade is the definitive one with the multiple programmable profiles. That's what we've wanted the capability of doing all along!

Another nice thing about keeping the guts the same is that if my old one goes belly up at some future time, I can still get the original model much cheaper and swap in the newest front panel.

[Niko]

Yikes.
I assumed they were only about $100.
I still think it's one of the best roasters for the value with the ability to upgrade without having to ebay the old one.
I guess you can ebay your "soon-to-be old" digital display after you get the newest one.

[pierre]

I picked up a Gene Cafe roaster a couple of months ago, when they first became available in Canada. Got it for $450 CDN - the Hot Top digital goes for $750 here, so the choice was pretty easy to make.

It's a huge step up from my previous roaster (HIP). The GC's max bean capacity is 300g (three times the HIP), gives me a better roasting profile, and is *much* quieter. It's so silent, I can't hear it over the noise of the range hood vent, something I'm sure my neighbours appreciate. :)

[Niko]

The iRoast2 capacity isn't as small as some other roasters, it takes a whopping 150g's for it's smallish size - not bad. With my coffee intake I need about 3 iRoasts. I'm approaching the 2400th shot pulled on my S1 in just 6 months! No, I don't drink them all myself - I'd be dead by now...

Anyways, thanks for your input on the Gene Cafe. It's nice to hear more positive things about it, it's good to just hear anything about it since there's not much info out there.
300g is a huge amount for a home roaster, have you tried that amount? I know what they say is one thing but what is actually usable is another.
I think the Hottop capacity is 250g, another 50g in the GC might make me reconsider. I look forward to let's say, not having to roast all the time! I'd love to cut it down to 5 or so roasts a week. I look forward to the silence as much as the capacity. Smoke won't be a problem either, just installed a new kithen hood that really works wonders and besides, I have my wife well trained.

[bassface]

"Fishface" huh? Hmmmmm--didn't the "bass" & "face" rhyme occur to anyone? And that tune by jazz bassist Ray Brown of the same name? Oh well, kinda like the time I spelled my email address over the phone (it's the same) for a business and the nice lady asked me if I fished a lot. At least you guys didn't think my avatar was a hat rack.......


Back to the Hottop. I believe they say the capacity is up to 300 grams with 250 being optimal. You can do several roasts a day on the Hottop where the IRoast advises against that. In fact it requires a lengthy waiting period between roasts if you choose to ignore their recommendations. I'm not really dissing the IRoast. It is my first roaster and I've learned what I've learned exclusively on it. I never went the hot air popper route. I'm glad it exists as it makes a nice first or second step into the world of home roasting.

As for selling the older Hottop models, I think it will always wind up being cheaper to upgrade. And the guts of the machine are the same anyway. My digital display Hottop arrives next week according to Fedex with the upgrade panel to follow in approx 4 weeks (acording to Michael at Hottop). I'm very excited.

I didn't realize the GenCafe had such a large capacity. I was considering it too.

Where do I get Smith Farms Kona? I'm having a Kona jones and SM is out and I wanted to try their's anyway?


thanks

bob

[chas]

http://www.smithfarms.com/index.htm

[bassface]

Thanks

I just ordered a few pounds





bob

[Niko]

I'm running out of Australia Mountain Top XF...
I don't know what I'm going to do! I'm absolutely addicted to this stuff and Sweet Marias ran out of it. I paid an arm and a leg for it, worth every penny and then some. I never thought I'd drink 20lbs in just a few short months. Maybe I'll get that Hottop before I run out so I can compare the roasters. I still have about 80lbs of other green laying around so no worries for a little while.

[bbqnut]

I had one of the 1st GeneCafe units in the US. I was on a waiting list for a long time.

I just gave it up about 2 weeks ago, and opted for a couple of iRoast 2 units.

Simply put, there are certain nuances in the beans that just get "mellowed out" using something like the GeneCafe. I realized I preferred the fluid air bed taste.

I can say that everything else about the GeneCafe was perfect. Batch size, quietness, ease of use, etc. But if you don't like the beans coming out of it...

I think Drum vs FAB is just another Ford vs. Chevy, so that is my $.02.

[bassface]

I thought the Gene Cafe was in essence an air bed roaster (even though it uses a drum). I remember Tom's review had words to the effect that it left the brightness intact but produced more depth in the roasts than a typical fluid bed roaster would. I think there is gonna be some compromise between body and brightness depending on the type of roaster one uses. I still plan on keeping my IRoast after the Hottop arrives.




bob

[bbqnut]

The GeneCafe is sort of a one-of-a-kind hybrid. However, I always felt the flavor profile was more like a Drum than a FAB.

The truth is, it is hard to get bright roasts with the GeneCafe, but it is relatively easy to get both mellow and bright roasts with the iRoast. I guess that is why I have opted for the iRoast over the GeneCafe.

I actually forgot to mention 2 other small flaws in the GeneCafe. There is no real programmability. You can set a temp and target time (say 470 for 18 min), but that's it. Very linear. You can stand in front of it and adjust either parameter on the fly, but cannot set multiple temp/time setpoints ahead of time and let the thing go.

The other thing is the cooling. The automatic cooling cycle usually takes about 6-10 minutes, but that is easily fixed by forcing an "E" stop, and cooling in a collander or some such device.

[BillK]

I have a Hottop, and have made two modifications that are exceedingly useful. First, I separated the power input to the heating element and the rest of the machine, so that I could use a Variac to control the heating element voltage. Second, I installed a manual override switch on the heating element, which allows me to let the heating element cycle under Hottop program control (at whatever voltage I select on the Variac) or operate the heating element full on (again, at whatever voltage I select).

With these two changes, I have virtually complete flexibility to control the roast. (cafeIKE on the coffeegeek board has posted instructions on how to make the modifications, as well as his latest mod, which is to have adjustable fan speed.) I don't think that the new Hottop will allow the level of control I have, but it will make things more automatic.

I am very, very satisfied with the Hottop machine and technical support.

[scot]

I like my sc/co with a third party motor shoved in it. Roasts over a pound with nary an issue, and is fairly quiet. Somewhere inbetween the iroast and a GC. (I own neither, just an HWC. Just trying to lay a comparison down)

Only issue is that it is a pure manual unit so it is a PITA to have to stand there and fiddle the entire time. At over a lb each roast though, I can deal with the time.

As for cooling, I have a 10ft slab of granite acting as my countertops. I just pour the beans out on the counter, evenly and all up and down the counter. Beans are room temp in 30 seconds, and the granite doesnt even get slightly warm. Only issue then is chaff... I haven't found a good solution for that yet.

Scot

[pierre]

Anyways, thanks for your input on the Gene Cafe. It's nice to hear more positive things about it, it's good to just hear anything about it since there's not much info out there.
300g is a huge amount for a home roaster, have you tried that amount?

Not yet, most I've done in a batch so far is 270g.
The GC community is slowly starting to grow, some have started to post their favourite roasting profiles: link1, link2.

[Niko]

I've put the roaster on hold for now until the newer Hottop hits the market and until I research some more on the Gene Cafe, I haven't ruled this one out yet.
Thanks for the info Pierre.
I'll probably make the purchase this Spring since I'm buying another Vivaldi (or something close to it) within the next month or so.

[JonW]

Niko - you might want to investigate the SC/TO options. I was so close to pulling the trigger a few months back on the GC and decided, what the heck, I'll just build my own. As Scot mentioned, you do have to babysit it a bit, but at a pound per batch, the 15 mintues is well worth it.

I'm still learning with mine, but it is very easy to use.

- Jon

[Martin]

Only issue is that it is a pure manual unit so it is a PITA to have to stand there and fiddle the entire time. At over a lb each roast though, I can deal with the time.
As for cooling, I have a 10ft slab of granite acting as my countertops.
Scot

I'm always curious about what people do during the time that their HotTop or whatever plug-and-play roaster is doing during the 15 minutes or so of the roast. Read? Tidy up the dishes? IMO, the best part of roasting is watching. And if you have a method that allows instant, on-the-fly control, you actually are in charge of what you get (rather than whatever you or the manufacturer programed in.

Agree about the granite counter. Others might want to check out stone yards for "scraps." Still not cheap, but if you can pick up a couple of square feet that are laying around, you can lay it on top of whatever your work surface.

Martin (HG/DB outdoors and no chaff problems; no problems of any sort; life is good)

[Niko]

This from Sweet Maria's:

Future HotTop Models: This is a contol panel upgrade, and you will be able to upgrade older machines to make them "programmable." But I have a few words of caution: the price jump is going to be huge. Word is, the programmable model will be about $1000!
But of course, I am making conjecture here, and we won't know until February or March. -Tom 1/22



I might be looking into one of the currrent digital models if the above is correct.
-Niko

[Niko]

I've got to get this upgrade for my Hottop! It sounds like this will be a real sweet ride.

http://www.hottopusa.com/news.html

Update: from Hottop's website...
- Price for the complete upgrade kit (will upgrade earlier KN-8828 or KN-8828D models) $480.00

I think they (Hottop) are crazy.
For a little more than this, one can purchase a small shop roaster!

[bbqnut]

Only issue is that it is a pure manual unit so it is a PITA to have to stand there and fiddle the entire time. At over a lb each roast though, I can deal with the time.
As for cooling, I have a 10ft slab of granite acting as my countertops.
Scot

I'm always curious about what people do during the time that their HotTop or whatever plug-and-play roaster is doing during the 15 minutes or so of the roast. Read? Tidy up the dishes? IMO, the best part of roasting is watching. And if you have a method that allows instant, on-the-fly control, you actually are in charge of what you get (rather than whatever you or the manufacturer programed in.

Agree about the granite counter. Others might want to check out stone yards for "scraps." Still not cheap, but if you can pick up a couple of square feet that are laying around, you can lay it on top of whatever your work surface.

Martin (HG/DB outdoors and no chaff problems; no problems of any sort; life is good)

Not to be a smart aleck, but on Saturdays I usually get about 10 roasts in on my 2 iRoast2 units by alternating them and letting each one rest. And I totally do stuff around the house or garage while the roaster does it's thing. If not for that luxury, I would not be able to roast enough to get me through the week.

So to answer your question, yes I do other things while the roaster is going. And nobody I know uses the manufacturer's presets. I program several of my own profiles that work quite well with various beans. And yes I know I am not supposed to abandon my roaster. Well I do it outside over a large area of only bricks - so fire is not a problem really.

I guess I have long been over the romance of sitting and watching, and futzing, and watching and futzing, and.....

[Niko]

Hey, you're no smart aleck.
I'm long over the romance also, only thing I watch for is fire danger. Mine is also programmed to do "my thing" with the beans.
I love my iRoast2, especially after reading and posting the new Hottop prices. I might as well look into a small shop or sample roaster for that price.

[bbqnut]

Yeah, at almost $1000 for essentially no change to the guts of the machine (correct me if I am wrong), it just seems like that $1000 might be better spent. My big threshold is batch size. I am not paying $1000 for 9 ounces. Sorry.

I want a roaster that will do a full pound, and I will spend $1500. The closest thing is a SonoFresco/Monster/Syd & Jerrys, and even used they are about $2500 or so. They are charging $4000-5000 new because no one else has a foolproof machine that can do that capacity. A Monopoly I guess, and you can't even set custom profiles (although the geek is not really their market).

Actually the GeneCafe is proof that a very controllable design is possible for $450 (just their roasting method is not to my liking). And they supposedly have a "digital" model coming out that allows multiple setpoint profiles. I don't know the price, but my guess is it will not be anywhere near $1000. I am thinking $695 or so.

[Niko]

And profiles are simply worthless if you know what you're doing anyways. According to Tom (from Sweet Maria's), profiles are worthless unless they're controlled by a laptop computer, I have to agree with him.

[Martin]

Not to be a smart aleck, but on Saturdays I usually get about 10 roasts in on my 2 iRoast2 units by alternating them and letting each one rest. <<<snip>>>
I guess I have long been over the romance of sitting and watching, and futzing, and watching and futzing, and.....

No smart aleckness perceived.
Any number of perspectives conflated in these last several posts:
One or two are "beyond" sitting and watching the roast.
Niko is giving the case for not inflating the usefulness of a "profile" unless it's controlled by some sophisticated electronics (PID?).
Then there's the complaint/not-complaint about costs.
Then there's the perfectly acceptable routine of doing 10, 5.5 oz roasts==with several set profiles.

And the best that anyone can say about the state-of-the art consumer-priced machines that will roast over a 1/2 pound is 1) they are not bad, but deficient in many respects, and 2) the new-improved Hottop is a rip.

So, I feel very fortunate to live in a climate where I can roast outdoors 362 days a year. Under these conditions, I can do my typical 8-14 oz roasts with heatgun/dogbowl. And if I ever wanted or needed faster production, I go for a drum. Not making a case for a "superior" roasting method----just one that is every bit as good under the right conditions.

Martin (still waiting for technology to catch up with "watching and futzing."

[Niko]

Yeah, I'm looking into a whirley-pop style gizmo for the stovetop. It's very low tech also and requires hand cranking, at least you can do 1lb at a time. Batch size is my major issue.
I can almost roast outdoors all year round, the S.F. Bay has its mico-climates but thankfully I'm in the warm zone. I haven't had to since I got a new kitchen hood, it sucks out all the smoke so the house doesn't smell like a roastery.

[Walter]

Hello everyone ... newcomer here...

I have used the Gene for more than a year and the (manual) Hottop for more than 6 months with a few hundred batches each. I have found the optimum batch size to be around 220g for both units. IMO both are decent homeroasting units but both are far from being perfect. Both have weak heating elements and allow only little to no actual conrol over the roast (things with the new Hottop may be a little different regarding this issue).

Additionally the slow cooling is a major issue with the Gene and - again IMHO - an external cooling solution is a must. OTOH the slow heating with the the Hottop prior to 1st Crack and the rapid transition to 2nd can be a pain as well.

The Gene is more of an hot-air-roaster than a drum-roaster and thus capable of bringing out delicate floral notes and fruitiness of good greens a little better than the Hottop, especially in lighter roasts. But the Hottop provides one with a more balanced, rounded, mellow cup especially in espresso roasts.

If batch size were an issue and if I'd be looking for a cheap homeroasting solution with good control over the roast, I'd probably go for an RK drum. If batch size weren't an issue at all I'd still go for the Hottop mod which allows manual control over the roast (like the modifikations published by Ike already mentioned above), rather than the new programmable Hottop...

Cheers

Walter

[jonniewishbone]

I agree with Jon. Easy to build, tough as nails, and very easy to get consistent results on repeat roasts. I as so glad the I-Roar is locked in the basement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Niko]

I guess I'll be shopping for some sort of commercial Sample Roaster at this point. I have a nice large laundry room available with 220v outlets (gas hook up also) and with decent exhaust. I really don't need anything that roasts larger than 1lb at a time (anything larger and I'd be giving coffe away). Can anyone recommend a particular machine that could do this?

[jonniewishbone]

All the 1 lb roaster that I have seen to this point are electic and don't require gas. MMmmmm have to look a bit deeper for this type. I was seriously considering this one; http://www.diedrichroasters.com/homeroast.html
until I required something that would do more than a pound. If I wasn't doing an instore roaster type deal I would probably try out;
http://www.rkdrums.com/ For the money and the size per roast this would be great.. but in your case the ventilation would be a problem.

[Niko]

I was hoping for something in the price range of an S1...oh well, I guess I better start saving some money.
Maybe I can find something in the used market for a 1/2 - 2/3 of that retail price, knowing how people (don't) take care of stuff I'd be better off with new.
I wonder if Probat has something similar, time to do some huntin' around...

The RK is not an option for me, it's a great idea though.

Thanks for the info Jon.

[Walter]

I wonder if Probat has something similar, time to do some huntin' around...

That would be the Probatino (with 800-1200g batches). The price for a new Probatino is probably around 10,000$...

At a somewhat more reasonable price you could check out the 1lb roasters of Coffee-tech (Maggiolino), Discaf (TN1) or CoffeePER (San Franciscan SF-1lb), maybe even the Toper Cafemino (1kg) would be an option. Ozcaffe and HasGaranti are also said to build smaller roasters on request...

[Niko]

I was hoping to keep the roaster small in size (sort of) and around the $2000 (US) dollar amount. Dream on...because there really isn't anything like that out there unless one of these companies decides to make a truly commercial sample roaster designed to be installed in a home environment. Home roasting has really taken off in the last couple of years, it's become more common among geekers everywhere so maybe someone is secretly working on something like this.
I just can't sink $3800-10K on roaster right now, if I had 7k right now I'd put it on a PID' Linea before a roaster so you see where my priorities are. The $3800 is almost doable...if only it was under 3k...damn.

[Weska]

There is a Turkish one that does 2 kilos with either electric or gas at http://www.gebrand.nl/HGS2.htm.

Costs 5,000 euro, but maybe a used one will turn up. The owner of the shop in the Netherlands (www.ongebrand.nl) has a good reputation and a lot of praise and presence, similar to Chris, at www.toomuchcoffee.com, the European website for coffee and espresso maniacs.

[Walter]

I was hoping to keep the roaster small in size (sort of) and around the $2000 (US) dollar amount. Dream on...because there really isn't anything like that out there unless one of these companies decides to make a truly commercial sample roaster designed to be installed in a home environment.

Coffee-Tech's Maggiolino was around 2.000$, the torrefatore around 3.000$ plus shipping (as of Nov 06), both are supposed to be truly comercial roasters. The Toper Cafemino was around 3.500$.

The Linea most probably will not make you a better espresso than the Vivaldi, btw...

[Niko]

The Linea most probably will not make you a better espresso than the Vivaldi, btw...

Yeah, I know...the Linea just looks threatening enough to scare people out of the kitchen.
Thanks for more roaster info Walter.

[Walter]

Yeah, I know...the Linea just looks threatening enough to scare people out of the kitchen.

Oh I see...

Well, for that purpose, maybe you should rather aim at a Synesso or a Mistral... ;)

...and if memory serves me well there was a 5-group Faema (E61) for sale on ebay a while ago (just read your preference for E61 in your profile)...

[Niko]

The Mistral is one strange looking machine, beautiful but strange...

On the other hand, the Synesso, another fine looking machine, is a total rip off from the Marzocco GS series. I think somebody there obviously worked for La Marzocco because it certainly shows.

I'm starting to get that feeling again to look at some roasters soon, my iRoar2 is still roaring with no sign of getting killed soon (I was hoping). Most of all, my ears are starting to ache again and I'm tired of roasting 2-3 batches in a row to get the desired amount. I might wait and see what the new Hottop programmable model has to offer (besides a big hole in the wallet), maybe I can work my way up to a Probat or something equivalent after.

[Walter]

A somewhat strange look seems to be sort of a trademark for all KvdW machines, the Mistral being no exception at all...

And, yes, it's surely no coincidence that Mark Barnett created the Cyncra in the same vein as the Marzoccos ... only without the flaws...

Regarding the new Hottop: Whatever improvements you get with the new programmable model, the weak heating element stays the same. Personally I'd prefer a manual control over heating and ventilating units anytime...

[Niko]

Regarding the new Hottop: Whatever improvements you get with the new programmable model, the weak heating element stays the same. Personally I'd prefer a manual control over heating and ventilating units anytime...

Sounds like you'd stear towards a Gene Cafe over the Hottop. It has the manual control knobs you're talking about, also a rather weak heat element I assume.


BTW, I thought I was nuts until I followed the link in your signature! You sure are crazy about this stuff and it shows.
I mean this as a compliment of course.

[chas]

Really! If my wife every thinks I've gone overboard, I'll show her Walter's site.

[Walter]

Sounds like you'd stear towards a Gene Cafe over the Hottop...

No, not at all. As a matter of fact I sold my Gene a few weeks ago and kept the Hottop for evaluation purposes in the roastery...

But if the Hottop were my main roaster I'd modify it to achieve full manual control (i.e. as described here: http://www.ielogical.com/coffee/ )

P.S. Yes I know, that I'm crazy about coffee... ;)

[Niko]

Walter,
What did you like and dislike about the Gene? Just curious, not that I'm really into that roaster but I'd like to know from someone who has tried both (Hottop and Gene).






I still think you're nuts.
...about all that coffee stuff.

[Walter]

Really! If my wife every thinks I've gone overboard, I'll show her Walter's site.

You know, it's not the first time I hear something like this. ;)

I was even crazy enough to open a small speciality roasting business here...

[Walter]

Walter,
What did you like and dislike about the Gene? Just curious, not that I'm really into that roaster but I'd like to know from someone who has tried both (Hottop and Gene).

What I really liked was that the Gene was able to bring out the subtle floral notes in lighter roasts (i.e. the citrus of a good Yirg or the blueberry of certain Harars, etc.) a little better than the Hottop.

What I disliked was the necessity of external cooling (colander, bucket & vac) and the somewhat weak heating. Also with its controls it gives you the illusion of being able to control the roast (or do profiles) when in fact you can do little to improve a roast.

Edit: typo corrected...

[Niko]

What you just described about the flavors totally sounds like a fluid bed roaster character in the cup.
Do you like the Hottop enough to use it for everyday if you were a "normal" coffee person (you nut)...sorry can't help myself.
I'm still shaking from all that coffee paraphernalia of yours. If coffee were illegal, you'd get 3 life terms with all that stuff!

[Walter]

What you just described about the flavors totally sounds like a fluid bed roaster character in the cup.

Yes, IMO the Gene is more of a fluid bed roaster than a drum roaster...

Do you like the Hottop enough to use it for everyday if you were a "normal" coffee person (you nut)...sorry can't help myself.
I'm still shaking from all that coffee paraphernalia of yours. If coffee were illegal, you'd get 3 life terms with all that stuff!

IMO the manual Hottop is an OK compromise for the home user who is roasting for Espresso mainly...

[jackiechang]

Look who I brought home with me.

Next step up would be 5-6K. So, this is it...For awhile at least.

[Niko]

Nice!!
That's what I'm waiting for to see...is it worth it?

[jackiechang]

It produce consistent enough result and it's flexible for the tinkers. I'll give more report in a few days.

[jackiechang]

Nice!!
That's what I'm waiting for to see...is it worth it?

You mean the roaster, right?

[Niko]

No the Blonde at the Spaziale booth!

...Of course the Roaster. I'd love to see it in action sometime, have you roasted anything with it yet?
And no more blondes for me, I'm married to one.

[jackiechang]

Did 2 on auto so far. Will try much faster ramp up tomorrow. You are welcome to test drive it. For home use, this is it. I went to Long Beach with the intent to find a small commercial grade drum roaster to set up in my garage. But even a 2 Kilo starts at 5-6K. And the sample roaster are 1/8 to 1/4 Lb. only. Didn't see anything in between.

[Niko]

I'm very curious about this roaster. I started this thread trying to decide between the Gene Cafe and the older Hottop digital model. How does the programming compare to your iRoar? I haven't seen this newest digital model hit the market yet but that's where they usually release new things, at the trade shows.
One thing's for sure, you won't miss the hair-dryer loudness while roaasting...

[jackiechang]

I was considering between Hottop, Gene and alpine. None of them were close to be perfect, this one comes out on top. It will do for now.
And if you are lucky. You can get this one for under 4K.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... &rd=1&rd=1

[Niko]

Wow, that's quite a roaster on that eBay link. My wife would kill me, at least I would enjoy it in the afterlife...only problem is that I can't take it with me.
That new Hottop digital model makes the most sense so far, it's the slightly scary price tag that makes me shiver. Once I get over the sticker shock, probably about 5 minutes, I got to find a way to KILL the iRoar2 (excuse for newer roaster).

[jackiechang]

Detail review for Gene:
http://www.homeroasters.org/php/forum/v ... ead_id=473
Review for Hottop (This is the guy that wrote the manual for hottop):
http://www.espressomyespresso.com/

[Niko]

Thanks for the links jackiechang.

So how's it going with the new Hottop? You know I'm counting on you for your true opinion of the machine, I know you're the type of person (like me) who always demands more out of something and then more later.
It sounds like you'll be set for quite a while with this new roaster. Is the honeymoon over yet? You must be at a stage where you can start complaining about it, of course nothing is perfect.
Unless...you buy one of those huge commercial roasters that would take up your entire garage.

[jonniewishbone]

I agree with Jon Niko.. and I'm a Jon as well. That is TWO Jons telling you to go with the SC/CO before spending the big $$. Believe in the Jon Word!! The Jon's know all!!

[Niko]

Somehow I feel a sense of peer pressure going on around here...

I found a source that was selling that thingy you guys are pressuring me into, it seems really cheap so you have my attention again.
What do you monitor temps with and tell me your steps, set up and how long, etc.. I don't mind the babysitting so much if it means a pound per roast cycle, it's the cooling and chaff that I'm not so sure of. That's what attracts me to the Hottop ease of use, I can live with 250-300 gram roasts, it's the smallish 150 on the iRoar2 that kills me. For that kind of noise I expect 1lb at a time because my ears can only take so much. Speaking of noise, I bet that turbo thingy is pretty loud also.

[jonniewishbone]

pm sent Niko

[jackiechang]

It's not a hotrod, Burning rubber any time I want is not going to happen here. Temp. up or down is slow but is very stable. profiling is possible, 2-1/2 to 3 minutes between 1st and 2nd crack is easy. Been able to do full city plus without the burned taste.
And for the cooling tray. You don't know what you're missing until you have it. The new Hottop has a fan under the colling tray. at the end of the cooling cycle the beans are ready to be bagged.

[chas]

Jackie: I recently upgraded my original Hottop to the Prgrammable model. I doubt I could have convinced myself to pay that much if I was buying new. The upgrade was bad enough but not as bad as I had heard quoted in various places.

I paid $420 which included shipping and they also threw in one of each filter, a new heating element, and a new temp sensor. I guess after paying that much for the upgrade they wanted to make sure I was happy with my older machine.

The best part was that in having to dismantle the HT to install the upgrade, I was forced to give everything a thorough cleaning for the first time in a couple of years. You will probably notice sooner or later that where some smoke escapes under that external heat protection grate you will start to get tan, whisker like growths on the grate. I assume this is coffee sugar crystallizing out of the smoke. The entire inside around my motor was thick with this stuff. If I'd waited much longer, this stuff would have started blocking the vent holes in the rear of the motor housing!

BTW: I use a Variac I bought from Coffee Bean Corral to boost the voltage to 130V. When the heating element comes on the voltage drops to 122V. I see that CBC does not seem to carry the Variacs any longer. I also noticed that they are selling the HT Programmable upgrade for $399 and the full HTs are modestly discounted as well.

[Niko]

How do you like the upgrade so far?

[chas]

So far so good. It's taking me a while to figure out the ins and outs of programming and get it fine tuned the way I want it; especially since I only do a couple of roasts a week.

There may be a couple of things that could have been implemented better but in general they really thought in out well. When in different modes the entire display is backlit in different colors to give you the visual queue as to which mode you're in. Also the buttons have internal lights and only the button that are valid to press an any given instant light up. So, given all the programmability, its pretty east to use.

[Niko]

That's nice to hear.
Are you going to do a mod to get a fan below the cooling tray? Jackiechang mentioned something about the new Hottop models having a fan below that.

[chas]

There's always been a fan under the cooling tray. I found it interesting to notw when doing the upgrade that the rear fan and the fan under the cooling tray are wired together so they always run at the same time and same relative speed. However, when the beans dump, both fans kick up to a speed higher than they ever do or can be progammed to do during a roast.

[jackiechang]

I'm glad I'm not the only Jetsons around here.
Chas: I got the floor demo so it was only 800. But since the tech was there, it was fine tuned.
Have you got the hang of it yet? I need to buy bigger batch of greens. Because every time when I finally get the taste that I really like, I'm down to the last of it.

[chas]

Yes, you should be buying green in at least 5-10lb lots.

[Niko]

Mine are usually 10-20 lb lots just because of that reason. I hate dialing in a roast only to run out green when I finally like it.
Chas, what other greens suppliers do you use besides Sweet Maria's?

[jackiechang]

Oh, I'm buying 5s now and considering 20-50.
Niko: You reminds me of the neighbor in "Home Improvement". Missed you in Waikiki. And here's some good source from what I've hear http://homeroasters.org/vendors.htm.

[admin]

Mine are usually 10-20 lb lots just because of that reason. I hate dialing in a roast only to run out green when I finally like it.
Chas, what other greens suppliers do you use besides Sweet Maria's?

In addition to SM, I like Coffee Bean Corral and I buy 5lb bags of Kona from Smith Farms.

[chas]

I'm glad I'm not the only Jetsons around here.
Chas: I got the floor demo so it was only 800. But since the tech was there, it was fine tuned.
Have you got the hang of it yet? I need to buy bigger batch of greens. Because every time when I finally get the taste that I really like, I'm down to the last of it.

I'm still working on it. I am trying to get the fastest possible ramp up to 1st crack and then slow it down from there. I started with Randy Glass' profile and have been experimenting from there. I have a sneaking suspicion that when I finally get where I want to be, I'll be closer to Randy's original program than where I am now

It is quite easy to complete a roast about 3 minutes faster than with the factory program. I always stopped the roast purely on sound but the same level of 2nd crack now comes out much darker so I will have to relearn that aspect when I get the program the way I like it.

[Niko]

At least you can hear 2nd crack on that thing!
I literally burn my ear off against the glass on that damn iRoar2 when I wait for 2nd crack to approach. I fly strictly by instruments with that damn thing (instinct really), since I'm blinded with all the roaring sounds. I go by looks (would help if I cleaned the glass more often than once a season) also go by sound (yeah right!) and also go by smell (by then my ears are so shot that I smell sweat"revenge" by wanting to kill the roaster).

Blessed is the Hottop for some day I might own thee
Forever the sounds of iRoast I will not miss
For my ears will finally thank me...

[jonniewishbone]

Niko
Did you ever begin the process of putting together a SC/CO???

[Niko]

No, not yet...
I've been having espresso woes so I might start that project soon. I'm going to focus more on roasting in the coming days to keep my mind off the lousy shots I've been pulling.

Did you get that Appia running yet?

[jonniewishbone]

Not yet. Picked it up on Friday but won't plumb it in for another two weeks when I set up the counter and install the roaster which will arrive this coming week I believe. Have to run gas lines, electricity, and plumbing.... A good project. Let you know as I am working on a review of it for Coffee Geek.

Jon

[Niko]

Niko
Did you ever begin the process of putting together a SC/CO???

Back to this...
I need to do something soon because I roasted for H O U R S to get the amount of coffee I'm about to put through the machine this week, going to have some visitors who drink a lot of coffee. One guy in particular drinks coffee by the LITER and he downs espresso shots like water.
I need a bigger roaster, sooner than later.

[jonniewishbone]

Niko... you just have to put one of these in operation. Last Sat. morning I roasted six batches back to back @ 16-18 minutes per batch and it didn't miss a beat. Granted it took me almost two hours to get the 8.5 lbs but for a home roaster you can't beat it. No noise except the very audible 1st and 2nd crack and after you get your profiles down you can pretty much walk away from it to do other things... like pull amazing shots with your FRESH coffee... I may have to just pack mine up and send it down to you when the other roaster is set up to make you "smell the coffee"

[chas]

The HT doesn't have that great a throughput either other than that you can put in 9oz of green and get 8oz of roasted out. In order to give a more repeatable roast experience in back to back roasts, the HT has to cool down first. You can restart it again immediately but it will just turn with the fan running until it is cool before the heater elements kicks back in to start the next cycle. So you are limited to about 1lb per hour.

[Niko]

At this point the Hottop would be enough for me, I don't need 8.5lbs of coffee in an afternoon. More like 1-2lbs would be enough, although I did roast about over 3 lbs yesterday on that damn iRoar and that's a lot of coffee to push through that little thing! A good thing about the iRoar is that I can roast batch after batch, one after another and it's pretty consistent once the roaster is hot. It's that little heating element I'm worried about, I try to let it rest for about 15-20 minutes between roasts but sometimes I go one after another...and it's been OK. Other than the noise, all is well.
I just wish I can hear the arrival of 2nd crack better, I've had moments where I missed it and the rapid firing of 2nd crack(s) have started. That's the problem with the iRoar (besides sound) is the small amount of time between the cracks, I get shiny oily beans in no time if I'm not careful. It's that fine line, I mean razor thin line between Full City and Vienna that I'm after for certain beans that I can't hit sometimes because of the damn iRoar. I get about 10 seconds to hit that Full City+ I want, a quiet larger roaster would do the trick easily I think.

[Sleepless]

As with all things coffee, there is always hope for something better (though I am set for a while with my S1 and MXKR). I have an iRoast, which was a nightmare to get consistent roast out of (especially when the room temperature drops in winter-time), and now my Hottop is good (the new upgrade with profile control might be great) if I am only roasting for myself and my wife... but the need to cool down between batches is really limiting - and inefficient. I have gotten to holding the hose of my shopvac up to the front (with the cover off) and sucking air through to speed up the cooling process. Still, I spend so much time in front of the roaster that I hope for a something better soon. I had considered the Diedrich, and still am, but it is a bit on the expensive side for me.

BTW - when I used my iRoast I found that I could wear hearing protectors, and it eliminated most of the roaster noise, while allowing me to hear first and second crack.

- Steve

[Niko]

I can hear really well depending on the frequency, but with my new, very loud kitchen hood, things get a little noisy. First crack is no problem, 2nd is a little more challenging and that's just one more reason the Hottop is more attractive.
Are you planning on getting the latest upgrade for your Hottop?

[Sleepless]

I'm really tempted to get the upgrade... or maybe go for the whole roaster and have two. Tom of Sweet Maria's made a preliminary post back in March, with no update since. I'd like to see how much the whole roaster costs versus just the upgrade.

As good as the fresh roasted coffee is, I know I could do better with more control. It would be even better if you could do back to back roasts (though I have a feeling the roaster might self destruct).

- Steve

[Niko]

Chas paid $420 which included shipping.
As far as roasting back to back. I don't see why not if the "little iRoar-that-could" roasts back to back for me countless times.

[Jeff]

Niko - I don't know if you've made a decision on a roaster yet, but I'm about to post a reveiw of my Gene Cafe on the CG site. I got mine in March and like it a lot, except for the two parts that failed. But Tim does a GREAT job with warranty service, so I'm not as upset about that as I might have been.

I really do like the manual control the the GC. Also, I've never used the machine's cycle to cool - I've always done it with a mesh colander and a vacuum. My beans are cool in 45-90 seconds, depending on roast and batch size. See photos here:

http://flickr.com/photos/7517052@N05/

I manually stop the machine, dump the beans, replace the drum and put the machine back in cooling mode.

There was one thing that really impressed me, though, and that was when I had a chaff fire. I didn't do anything wrong, like loading up too many beans or failing to empty the chaff collector. Actually, something came flying out of the heater box, a hot orange piece of debris streaking into and across the drum, straight to the exit screen where all the chaff was held by the air. It ignited, but not with flames. It was like a good strong draw on a freshly lit pipe - glowing but not flaming. That's when I realized what a great advantage the air system is on that roaster - because it happened at the exit screen and the extra heat and smoke prompty left the roasting area, no beans were ever in contact with the smoke or flame. I kept an eye on the extra smoke coming out of the chaff collector, but still no flames and in 20 seconds it was burned out. Roasted beans were delicious. And something I did not expect - the plastic did not melt at all. That must be some super high-temp stuff.

Overall the roasts from the GC have been delicious. I'm totally spoiled on the manual controls and I can't think of another roaster in that price range I would buy. I just got a 1-lb gas sample roaster and was going to put the GC up for sale, but I'm reluctant... it's such a fun little machine. I recommend it.

[Niko]

No, I haven't decided on the next roaster yet.
I was leaning heavily towards the Hottop but that's on hold again. I'm going to eventually check out jackiechang's rig one of these days (maybe in Sept?), he's got the newest digital programmable model.
After even more research, I'm starting to like the GC again...don't know why but I think it mostly has to do with the all-manual controls, I really like that idea.
So you have a gas roaster? Hmm, how much $$ were you planning on selling it for? Do you have any links to some pics of it?

[Jeff]

I was thinking of selling the GC for $385 + UPS. It's done less than 50 roasts (they replaced the original machine in May when the motor failed).

[Niko]

385 ain't bad. They replaced the whole roaster for you?

[Jeff]

Yeah, he tried to fix it once, but it failed again so he sent a whole new roaster, probably because it was so new. Like I said, I really like Tim's service and he's quick to address problems. I believe he's the only warranty agent for Genesis in the US. He does a good job.

Sorry, don't have any pics at the moment.

[Niko]

I meant pics of the gas 1lb roaster. The GC I know is a nice little machine.

[Jeff]

Just between you and me...

http://www.coffeeper.com/SF-1LB.html

One of the reasons I got a bigger roaster is that my neighbors are now buying coffee from me. One has been fond of the Mexican Malinal Peaberry from Burman, and when I gave her the first batch out of the new roaster she said, "You know, I think this coffee is better." And she loved the previous stuff. She and her husband are also quite fond of espresso from the Anita... they don't know I have the Vivaldi yet. :P